The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[the808bass]

A majority of the total membership interest of the Group, in person or by proxy, shall constitute a quorum for the transaction of business at any meeting of the Members.

The way I read this is they need a majority of members present or represented by proxy in order to conduct official business for the Group.

That wouldn't change any percentages needed for ratification. They'd still need 100% of the quorum voting in favor of the resolution in order for it to pass. Just my reading of it. I am by no means an expert in this area.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

If this by-law passed, and the business of making the group mandatory was brought up, then is all they would need is a majority at the meeting for it to pass???

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

BTW, I forgot to thank you for the response.

Becky

[SoothingDave]

A majority of the total membership interest of the Group, in person or by proxy, shall constitute a quorum for the transaction of business at any meeting of the Members.

My reading is that a majority of the membership is required to make a quorum. As you probably know, a quorum is the number of people needed before any business can take place.

I am not sure what the rules are as far as how many people in a quorum have to vote, I believe you said it was unanimous. this sentence does not speak to that issue at all.

What it says to me is that if half of the owners are present (or proxy) then the group can do business.

SD

[Invincibly Ignorant]

If this by-law passed, and the business of making the group mandatory was brought up, then is all they would need is a majority at the meeting for it to pass???

Why do they want to form a homeowners association? I belong to one and have dues of 47 bucks a month. But that maintains a swimming pool and golf course. (and I don't even golf)

[malakhi]

My question: Right now for them to get the group mandatory they have to have 100% approval from all the land owners in this addtion. I am reading the above by- law to mean that they will only need a majority of the interestedland owners, which could mean a majority of the votes cast, not necessairly a majority of the land owners.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. The way I read this is that they need to get 100% of all the land owners approval in order to then pass 'rules' on a majority basis. I cannot imaging that they can arbitrarily change it so that they can impose membership in a homeowners group on those who do not want to be involved, simply on a majority vote of the neighbors. The 'rules' do not become manditory UNTIL you agree to accept the 'rules' by voting to join the association, or by purchasing a property within an existing homeowners association. I cannot imagine that they can force you to join.

A majority of the total membership interest of the Group, in person or by proxy, shall constitute a quorum for the transaction of business at any meeting of the Members.

What this means is that the group must have a majority of the members present in order to conduct business.

If you want me to look at the actual paperwork, you could fax or e-mail it to me.

[D-fendr]

"Her experience, my experience, and the experience of many others is identical and it is my belief that we should continue to speak of it."

You're gonna disagree somehow with this, but maybe not, so I'll try. Here's what I see:

Many of us have bad experiences with religion, it seems epidemic in youth. Religion is, too, used to cut to our deepest self, and used to harm that aspect of us, sometimes for good motives, sometimes out of recycled injury. This happens often for both and all sides here.

This is what I see often on this thread: Old pains and resentments expressed in anger. Old fears and insecurities re-opened.

I've asked: What is it about discussing religion, supposedly the area of knowing that teaches us to access our highest nature, that so often brings out our lowest? I think the reason is about these old injuries.

So, to your point: "…the experience of many others is identical and it is my belief that we should continue to speak of it." Yes, if it is helpful; no,if it is not. This is something we each decide, but sometimes others can be of help, looking from outside with good intentions. My intention is that those who suffer need not; this is, IMO, the most useful and practical religious experience. And talking, arguing I would argue, about these old wounds is not inherently helpful, it can also increase the injury, add new injury, re-visit old injury, re-enforce old injury, justify injuring back.

In these cases talking about the bad experience is not what I would recommend. Is it possible to lessen our own injury by injuring others? Is it possible to seek to harm others without harming ourself?

Back to the practical aspect of religion, the topic of this thread. Let's apply this here, and I'll take this opportunity to offer you the possibility to consider your experience as an example: Has your discussion/debate here resulted in more fruit of the Holy Spirit in you: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control?

Is this the evidence shown in your discussion and debate here, in your "continuing to speak of it"?

If it has not, then I would say that continuing is not a good thing. And that when we continue on with behaviour that results in the opposite of these fruits, then we are often missing a piece, we often cannot see for ourselves what we are really asking for, what we are really looking for.

Another indication of this is when we find we cannot get enough, even when we "win" something is missing. This tells us we are not really asking for what we claim we are asking for; it is a symptom, not a cause.

Was Peter a pope; what is the history of the lineage of the popes? Is this really the goal you and Becky are so engrossed in? If you could know for absolute certainty the answer to this would religion then increase your love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control?

Or would there then be another most important history to determine? And then another, and another?

Hence my earlier consideration: "Ok. You have proven that Catholics are dead wrong. Now what?" I posted that to consider if you accomplished that would it bring you what you are really seeking? And, if not, why not lay it down, what is it that keeps its hold on you, what would happen for you if you let it go?

And now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go spend more time in the box.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Because they are a bunch of rich snotty yuppies, who moved in to this addition and built huge expensive homes and are now trying to regulate what the rest of us do on our land, such as in these by laws it says they will form a committee that anyone wanting to build on their land anything from a home to a shop or garage, or barn has to submit their plans, what type of material will be used etc. and have it APPROVED by the committee before it can be done. All in the name of protecting property value.

Is what these people are failing to see is they moved into an addition that already had some really nice places all the way down to some really dumpy places. IMO if they didn't like it they shouldn't move in THEN try to change it. I get mad just thinking about it. Our place is average. About 1700 sq. ft. we have done alot of clearing, we have a shed type barn, and a shop made of barn tin that is painted to match the house. But it is nothing like these huge homes with their manicured lawns. Sorry I will end my rant here.

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

The problem is one of the guys pushing the mandatory thing told the secratary of the club (she told me) he had found a loop hole that would allow the passage of the mandatory thing without the 100% approval. I'm trying to figure out where the loop hole is so I could maybe stop it with the by-laws of the group. I thought this might be it.

Becky

[the808bass]

If this by-law passed, and the business of making the group mandatory was brought up, then is all they would need is a majority at the meeting for it to pass???

No. They would need a majority of the people represented to even vote on it. It shouldn't change the percentage needed to pass it.

And you're welcome.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

But it is nothing like these huge homes with their manicured lawns. Sorry I will end my rant here.

Well, find a huge ratty cardboard box and flatten it, take a magic marker and write "Turnips for Sale" or something like that and set it up by your driveway. That should really get them upset. JK. Actually that's too bad. The associations are a bear to deal with. They keep asking us to vote on things that cost thousands of dollars and would raise the cost of our monthly payment. We keep voting them down. But they sure are a pain in the rear.

[Fury]

We have a group of neighbors who recently moved in and are trying to start a homeoweners group, and actually want to make it mandatory. We don't want any part of something like that, but because I heard they were trying to find loop holes to be able to make it mandatory I went to the last meeting and got a copy of the by-laws that they are going to try to pass at the next meeting. 21 pages!

I think someone already asked this, but what is their reason for wanting to start a Homeowner's Association?

I am trying to write some different ones to present at the next meeting to get them passed that will tie their hands so that 1. they won't be able to make it mandatory and 2. I won't have to go to every meeting to keep track of what they are up too.

What follows are of course suggestions.

If you present alternative Bylaws, you are in effect, validating the need for a Homeowner's Association. Don't do that. Find out the motive for the people who want this Association. What problems exist that would make a Homeowner's Association desireable? And then, armed with that information, find out what already existing services aare available from government sources such as Planning Board, Police, Water, Sewer, etc can resolve those problems.

Homeowner's Association sometimes try to resolve issues by introducing a layer of bureacracy. How many people live where you do? How long have they lived there? Go around and talk with all neighbors. Have them show up in a support of NO Homeowner's Association, if that is your goal. People that are one the fence about a Homeowner's Association may very well give more credibility to those who have lived in the area longer than most. Use that time in the neighborhood as an advantage.

But do not come there with alternate Bylaws, if you really do not want a HA. Again, doing so, just validates the need for one. Such a move could very well backfire. Organize opposition, go door to door and attend the meetings! There is strength in numbers.

[malakhi]

The problem is one of the guys pushing the mandatory thing told the secratary of the club (she told me) he had found a loop hole that would allow the passage of the mandatory thing without the 100% approval. I'm trying to figure out where the loop hole is so I could maybe stop it with the by-laws of the group. I thought this might be it.

I don't think so. I don't know what the state laws are in Oklahoma, but I can't imagine them being able to force such a thing. You may end up needing to get legal advice. But I'd still be happy to look at the paperwork. Freepmail me if you want my fax number.

[fortheDeclaration]

If this is true, why isn't recorded in Scripture that Christ commanded his Apostles and followers to teach people how to read? If its true that "each individual believer must read the scriptures" does this mean that illiterate people can never be believers?

I think the question are getting a little silly now.

The fact is where the Bible is, there is always a high literacy rate.

It is in countries that do not have Bibles to read (Catholic dominated countries, like Latin America and Mexico) that one has a high illiteracy rate.

Moreover, parents are commanded to teach children from the Bible (Deut.6:9).

American children were taught to read from the King James, that is why we had such a high literacy rate at one time.

[Fury]

Because they are a bunch of rich snotty yuppies, who moved in to this addition and built huge expensive homes and are now trying to regulate what the rest of us do on our land, such as in these by laws it says they will form a committee that anyone wanting to build on their land anything from a home to a shop or garage, or barn has to submit their plans, what type of material will be used etc. and have it APPROVED by the committee before it can be done. All in the name of protecting property value.

Well, that's what zoning and planning boards are for, to make sure that buildings are done according to code and standard.

Have you recently comped the neighbood? Has the sale price of houses but better or worse? Have assesed value been going up?

If you don't want a HA, fight it now. Once they are in place, they are pretty hard to get rid of.

[SoothingDave]

The fact is where the Bible is, there is always a high literacy rate.

LOL. Who's being silly now?

It is in countries that do not have Bibles to read (Catholic dominated countries, like Latin America and Mexico) that one has a high illiteracy rate.

I suppose you have something other than bigotry to back this up? What makes you think people in Latin America don't have Bibles?

SD

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I have told Mack if they ever get this thing passed there are no regulations on paint color of homes, I am going to paint the grass lime green, my house hot pink, the shop physcedlic orange, the barn purple, and any other awful color I can put somewhere:)

Becky

[fortheDeclaration]

LOL. Who's being silly now?

Nothing silly about it, its a fact.

It is in countries that do not have Bibles to read (Catholic dominated countries, like Latin America and Mexico) that one has a high illiteracy rate. I suppose you have something other than bigotry to back this up? What makes you think people in Latin America don't have Bibles?

They have bibles (due to pressure from evanglical groups) but the Catholic church does not encourage bible reading. Catholics are taught that they cannot understand the Bible, so they let the Priest handle that. Catholics (with very few exceptions) are not bible readers.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I guess I should have pointed out that the group is being run right now with no written laws, nothing but the coveneants are in writing, and they do not contain the 100% thing. These bylaws I have now are ones they are going to try to get passed at the next meeting. Right now it is all completely voluntary. Dues and everyhing. I have been told if they get it mandatory the dues will be $15 dollars a month and if you don't pay they can put a lean on your home.

The money will be used for things like a sign at the entrance of the addition, (we have gotten by without one for 21 years:), they want to put up some playgroung equipment, and some will be put back to pay a lawyer to prosecute people not abiding by their rules.

Becky

[SoothingDave]

They have bibles (due to pressure from evanglical groups) but the Catholic church does not encourage bible reading. Catholics are taught that they cannot understand the Bible, so they let the Priest handle that. Catholics (with very few exceptions) are not bible readers.

Lie. It says right in each Bible that one can earn an indulgence for faithfullr reading it. So take your nonsense elsewhere. Lies about Catholics don't ingratiate yourself to anyone or serve the God of Truth.

SD