The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[the808bass]

I hope you didn't scare him away.

I doubt he scares easily.

[IMRight]

Brother. Let me try to make it easy for you. I'll use English. If you want to know what an English word means, you use an English dictionary (with both the word and the definition in English). If you use a translational dictionary with the word in one language and definition in the other you are bound to run into these types of problems.

You can run around all day long yelling "tokos means usary", and trying to insult other peoples knowledge, but if you can't read a Greek to Greek dictionary, you can't play that with Bassman. Strong's is great and I use it all the time for arguments here, but if "blueberry" has twelve meanings in Greek but only three are used in Scripture, then those may be the only ones you find - even if they are not the primary definition of the word. If the RCC uses a word that is not found in Scripture, you may not be able to piece it together from Strongs.

Your point (as far back as I looked) was that somehow the Catholic understanding of theotokos meant that Mary=Mammon.

More simply put. Bassman is not exactly a Catholic apologist. If he disagrees with you on this one... back down.

[D-fendr]

I took 4 years of Spanish in High School, one in college. Went to Mexico and could speak it either, except for two times: Once after I spent the day snorkel hunting in the little bay, I understood the old man saying, "there aren't any lobsters in there anymore, stupid." And on the night before I left, I conversed in Spanish for hours with a stranger in a disco bar in Puerto Villarta. I don't know what either of us said, but he laughed a lot while I bought the margaritas.

Now I think margaritas must be the key to speaking fluent spanish.

[malakhi]

But what specifically is a bishop gift?

When a bishop sacrifices on R7 it is known as Greek gift or classic bishop sacrifice. Declining the Greek gift usually leads to a strong attack as the rook pawn is missing. In a few cases, declining the sacrifice will refute it, especially if the bishop cannot retreat.

[D-fendr]

"you don't happen to have a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance…"

No, I saw one once online, but I think my margarita theory might hold more promise. Or the box.

Sorry, good luck…

[IMRight]

You have freepmail.

And I'm off to bed. Goodnight all.

[IMRight]

Now I think margaritas must be the key to speaking fluent spanish.,p> That may have been my problem. I seldom have more that four or five drinks in a year (and no, not at the same sitting), so I may never speak Sanish again. I did spend a couple weeks in Italy a couple years ago and wasn't completely lost (but only because I had a good map).

[malakhi]

Say, bass, I have a question for you. From your perspective, what do you see as the primary (or perhaps the two or three primary) theological differences between the AOG and the SBC?

And one for you, BigMack. How, if at all, do IFBBs differ in belief from the SBC?

[D-fendr]

The bishop can be declined and the loss of the rook's pawn threat minimized by castling to the Queen of Heaven's side. This also leaves the offending bishop still under attack by the castle.

(The bishop sacrifice is also known as the King Henry VIII's Gambit).

[the808bass]

Freepmail back

[the808bass]

theological differences between the AOG and the SBC

1) Holy Spirit and more specifically the gifts of the Spirit which would tie into 2) dispensationalism which would both tie into 3) experience as theology (the SBCs aint for it)

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

And one for you, BigMack. How, if at all, do IFBBs differ in belief from the SBC?

We are right and there wrong. :)

No, the diffrence is IFBBs are all independent local churches that are self-goverened, Jesus Christ is the head, pastor, decons (servents) believers (members). We get our orders from God thru the Bible. Saved by faith only.

SBC is an orginised number of churches that depend on a church government to govern them. Saved by faith only, and that’s were we stop, there liberal were not.

BigMack

[malakhi]

(The bishop sacrifice is also known as the King Henry VIII's Gambit).

LOL!

[malakhi]

1) Holy Spirit and more specifically the gifts of the Spirit which would tie into 2) dispensationalism which would both tie into 3) experience as theology (the SBCs aint for it)

Thanks, bass. If it weren't for a few minor theological differences (trinitarianism and the doctrine of the incarnation) I think I'd find your church quite compatible.

[fortheDeclaration]

But, but… If your main point was nothing needed outside teaching the scripture, why wouldn't proper teaching be limited to teaching how to memorize the Bible.

God does give men the gift of teaching(Eph.4:11) Now, these men must teach what the scriptures teach, or we reject them (or we should reject them)

Having Bibles, the church is to check those teachers against those same scriptures.(Acts 17:11) The difference between our system and yours is that the men do not hold any special relationship with God, and thus, a special authority with us. It is the Bible that is always the final authority.

And wouldn't Scofield and Larkin be extra-biblical,

No, both use scriptures to support their dispensational teaching. This is not to say I agree with all they teach, for some of it doesn't line up with scripture and when it doesn't it must be rejected.

when did this dipensational tradition begin?

Premillennial theology was the theology of the early church until Augustine brought in Amillennial theology in the 4th century with his City of God. Origen preceded him with this view. An excellent work dealing with the history is the 3 vol work by Peters The Theocratic Kingdom. Dispensational theology became more defined about the 19th century,

I'm not being critical of what you decide is your best understanding of your religious teaching. I am reiterating that it is a false distinction to claim to be different than those who follow the teaching of men and "tradition."

No, each individual believer must read the scriptures and test those who are teaching if they are following those scriptures. A teacher is one who God has given the ability to make the complex more simple, but he is not a substitute for reading the Bible for oneself and seeing if what the teacher is teaching is correct or not.

Lot's of stuff to disagree about as far as meaning, but "without tradition or teaching of men" is not something an organized church or theological system can exist.

A local church will have a theological system it will follow, but it will be one based on the clear teachings of the Scriptures.

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual (1Cor.2:13)

[Woodkirk]

So you are saying that Strong's Exhaustive Concordance is incorrect when it translates "tokos" to mean "usury, money loaned at interest" or what?. Take that up with Strong's. Tell them that they are wrong and that they should quit telling people what words mean. Then take it up with Luke and Matthew. Then take it up with Jesus because he used that word to mean just that.

Do words have objective meanings or Humpty Dumpty meanings to you? If words have no objective meanings, then why do you argue with the meaning of the word "Theotokos" as "God of Usury". If meaning rests with the reader, then is it not the right of the reader to make up his meaning. You do it all the time.

But I didn't make up the word or the definition. It comes from a most reliable source: Strong's Exhaustive Concordance -- not from the imagination station or thin air.

Read to everyone here what Strong's says "tokos" means and if you are not going to do it then sit down and help bassman with those questions?

[malakhi]

SBC is an orginised number of churches that depend on a church government to govern them. Saved by faith only, and that’s were we stop, there liberal were not.

Thanks Mack. How does the SBC govern member churches? Are they required to go along with decisions set by the convention? And in what way are they liberal? I had always thought of Southern Baptists as being a pretty conservative bunch.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

. How does the SBC govern member churches? Are they required to go along with decisions set by the convention?

Its there way or the highway.

And in what way are they liberal? I had always thought of Southern Baptists as being a pretty conservative bunch

Mosts folks do think they are conservative, but that statement is as far as the east is from the west. Just one very small story in the whole story of the SBC:

Mercer University is the largest and most prominent Southern Baptist educational institution in Georgia. It receives $2.5 million a year from the Georgia Baptist Convention. Salaries of professors at Mercer are paid by Southern Baptist churches in Georgia. What are students taught at Mercer about the Bible? What are they taught about old-line Baptist doctrines? The President of Mercer since 1979, R. Kirby Godsey, published a book this year entitled When We Talk about God ... Let's Be Honest (Macon, Georgia: Smyth & Helwys, 1996) which denies that the Bible is infallible. Godsey says that "the notion that God is the all powerful, the high and mighty principal of heaven and earth should be laid aside." That is wicked heresy of the highest degree. As a matter of fact, in this one book Godsey denies, reinterprets, or questions practically every doctrine of the Christian faith.

And thats just one pebble of sand.

BigMack

[malakhi]

So you are saying that Strong's Exhaustive Concordance is incorrect when it translates "tokos" to mean "usury, money loaned at interest" or what?.

IMRight is gone for the night, so allow me to jump in here. What he and the808bass said was that "usury, money loaned at interest" IS ONE of the definitions of tokos, but it is a secondary definition. The primary definition is that of 'childbirth'. the808bass included a link to the full definition of the word from an online Greek dictionary in his #23951.

Most words have multiple meanings. The specific meaning of a word--which definition is being used--must be determined by the context. Given that, theologically, the term theotokos is used to describe Mary's role in giving birth to Jesus, the context is clear that "God-bearer" is the correct meaning. To read it otherwise to to be deliberately obtuse and to force a meaning that wasn't intended.

Let me give an example of what I mean. Let's say that you tell me that you believe in the Rapture. Rather than taking the meaning of the word how you intend (to refer to the transporting of believing Christians to Heaven), I pick a different meaning of the word (say, "The state of being transported by a lofty emotion; ecstasy."). You tell me I am wrong, and show me verses from Thessalonians to demonstrate your meaning. I insist that what you really are saying is that you believe that you will be emotionally lifted, not physically lifted. The context and the original intent is what determines that your definition is right, and mine is incorrect.

[malakhi]

The President of Mercer since 1979, R. Kirby Godsey, published a book this year entitled When We Talk about God ... Let's Be Honest (Macon, Georgia: Smyth & Helwys, 1996) which denies that the Bible is infallible. Godsey says that "the notion that God is the all powerful, the high and mighty principal of heaven and earth should be laid aside." That is wicked heresy of the highest degree. As a matter of fact, in this one book Godsey denies, reinterprets, or questions practically every doctrine of the Christian faith.

Ahhhhh. And this wasn't controversial? Now that you mention it, I seem to remember hearing something about controversy at Baylor University as well.

Is there such a thing as a 'Baptist mystic'? Or are IFBBs more focused on scripture and doctrine than on the experiential side of religion? My uninformed take is that Baptists are more interested in right belief than in 'spirituality'. But then again there are many flavors of mysticism. In what way do Baptists encounter the Presence of the Living God? (I apologize for my imprecise questions. I know what I'm trying to ask, but I don't think I'm expressing it very well. I hope you can figure out what I mean).