Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
There's a difference between being a martyr and being just plain stupid. ;o)
"Tribulation" sounds too much like "work," so yeah. I wish to escape tribulation.
SD
Becky
Cause Jesus didn't give the keys to John. Peter ended up in Rome and his successor became the next in the line of Popes.
SD
Becky
Thanks for your replys, let me give my take to you on the rapture and tribulation.
WHAT IS THE RAPTURE?
A very common question. What exactly is the rapture and what does the Bible say about it?
Lets start by looking at some Scripture about the Rapture:
1 Thessalonians 4:13 13. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Corinthians 15:51 51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
What is the rapture? Well it is a description of an event that will occur when God removes His Church supernaturally from the earth. People will literally disappear as they are called up to the clouds to meed the Lord in the air. There will be one generation that will not know physical death but will be instantly translated into the very presence of the Lord Jesus Christ. At the same time each Christian will also be transformed and receive their resurrection body. Lets look a bit more closely at the Scriptures previously quoted.
1 Thess 4: 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
This verse is stating that there will be some alive when Jesus returns. He will be returning with the dead in Christ. That is good news because if you have lost loved ones through death there will be a happy reunion at the rapture.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
The Lord Jesus will come Himself and will give a shout (command: possibly 'come up hither'). Notice the dead will rise first. There will be a resurrection where we will be given our resurrection, heavenly bodies. The dead in Christ will be the first to receive their bodies.
17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Those who are alive will be caught up to the clouds to meet the Lord Jesus Christ. What does 'caught up' mean. It literally means to be caught up, to snatch out, or to seize.
Those living at the time of the rapture will also be given their immortal, resurrected bodies. In the rapture the Jesus will not set foot on earth but will rather call us up to Himself in the clouds to meet Him there. This is contrasted with His second coming when He will set foot on earth at the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem at the battle of Armageddon. At that time everyone saved and lost will see Him return. However at the rapture only blood bought Spirit reborn Christians will see the Lord Jesus Christ. We clearly have two separate events 1) The rapture when Jesus meets the Church in the air and takes them to heaven and 2) The Second Coming which occurs at the climax of the battle of Armageddon. Here The Lord Jesus comes back to earth at the mount of Olives in Jerusalem and sets up His Kingdom.
1 Corinthians 15:51 51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
The rapture is a mystery that God through the Apostle Paul has revealed. The next question is: What is a mystery? Well a mystery is a new truth. Something not previously known.
- Could the mystery be the second coming of Jesus? No as the disciples & Christians already knew that Jesus would return again. Look at Acts 1:9-11 where Jesus is taken to heaven. He will return in like manner, bodily, physically. His Second coming is nothing new.
- Could the mystery be the general resurrection of all believers? Nope! God had already revealed that: See Daniel 12:2, Heb 11:17-19 Job 19:25-27. It was general knowledge that there would be a general resurrection of the righteous and the damned.
So then what is the mystery, the new truth that God through Paul is revealing? Verse 51 tells what the mystery is. 'We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed'.
1) We shall not all sleep. This means there is a generation of believers that will not die physically but will go straight to heaven. That is certainly new and unrevealed information!
- Here is an interesting aside..... What does sleep mean? Why did Jesus and His disciples use the term sleep as opposed to dead? Well the word sleep in their culture also included the fact that the dead person had a future. Death is not a final thing but there is a glorious future for the believer after physical death.
2) we shall all be changed. This literally means we shall be transformed. All born again, blood bought Christians will be given a new body. It will be a body of flesh and bones...a heavenly body just like the Lord Jesus had after His resurrection.
So to sum up verse 51....what is the mystery? The mystery is that there is one generation that will not all die but will rather be instantly transformed into their resurrection body as they meet the Lord in the clouds. This is the rapture! What a glorious way to go to heaven! If you had a choice, which way would you prefer to go to heaven?...by death or rapture? What a glorious new truth!
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
How long will the rapture take? Just a moment, a twinkling of an eye.... How long is a moment, a twinkling of an eye? It will be so quick that the time frame cannot be humanly divided. The rapture will be instant!
At that time we will be given our resurrection bodies as the Church is caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord. At the exact same time every believer in the world will be transformed and removed!
What a joy it will be at the rapture! Christians will be given their immortal glorified body. There will be no more sickness, pain, or death. We will forever be with the Lord and our loved ones!
1 Corinthians 15 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Our new bodies will be eternal, incorruptible, and glorious!...and the rapture is going to occur soon!
BigMack
As do I. I don't think Catholics can logically think that.
I'm not sure. I suppose that Peter picked his own successor. He certainly would have done something like that before his crucifixion.
SD
It's a question of degrees of seperation. I admitted to such seperation in the Apostolic action of the Orthodox Churches. Now, internal to the Catholic Church there are spheres where the local bishop exercises his power to bind and loose and there are spheres where the Pope's authority over all holds sway. It is all a quesiton of how big these relative spheres are to each other.
SD
Becky
I'm not sure exactly when the college of Cardinals as we know it was set up to be the body to select the next Pope. It is my understanding that it is a fairly recent development, maybe a few humdred years old. I'm not sure.
The system that is set up and how the next Pope is chosen is determined by the rules that were set up by a previous Pope. Any Pope at any time can make changes to the systme or presumably scrap it altogether, but I don't see that happening.
Nothing about the particular rules or process is considered infallible, as not all Popes were selected that way and the system can change. What is without error is the guidance the Holy Spirit gives to the Church. We never end up with the wrong Pope.
SD
I thought you said you could see it either way? Or was it just that you didn't care? Either way, saying you don't care and then calling it "legendary" shows you do care.
SD
The Holy Spirit wanted Innocent VIII to be pope?
Apparently.
SD
Becky
Why would your church use the general term "apostolic succession" if the succession is only limited to Peter and excludes the rest?
SD
Why would your church use the general term "apostolic succession" if the succession is only limited to Peter and excludes the rest?
We don't. "Apostolic succession" refers to any priest who comes from a continuous line of laying on of hands from any one of the apostles or any of their successor Bishops.
The Papacy descends from Peter, Bishops descend from Peter or any of the other Apostles.
That's why the Orthodox have valid priests, in our view. They don't have the Pope, but they still have Apostolic succession. So do some of the Anglicans.
SD
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