The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[SoothingDave]

I wanna know why if, I'm ok with calling Mary the mother of God, and I believe Jesus is the Word that was with God before the foundation of the world, that I have to believe Mary was sinless.

You don't have to. If I can't convince you of the truth, then you can remain skeptical. While it has been declared a dogma, which must be believed by all, Catholics still have a hierarchy of truths, some of which are more basic and more important than the others. Certainly I would give you a passing grade based upon what you have already confessed.

SD

[Wordsmith]

I wanna know why if, I'm ok with calling Mary the mother of God, and I believe Jesus is the Word that was with God before the foundation of the world, that I have to believe Mary was sinless.

I'm short on time today, and still giddy from the Patriots win, so I'll take the easy - but honest, I think - way out. You don't have to believe it. No one should force you to believe anything. Its not specifically in Scripture, its not in the Nicene Creed. You can be a good Christian, even a good Orthodox, and not believe it.

But I'd say, at the same time, its what the Church teaches. And there's always going to be a struggle towards understanding, a dialogue, between the individual believer and the Church, between the individual believer and God. In one of the first classes I sat in on, an inquirer asked, "can I be Orthodox and still have doubts about the ever-virginity of Mary?" The priest leading the class replied, IMO with complete accuracy, "You can be Orthodox and still have doubts about everything."

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Ok, I said if ya don't like it you can shove it up your......

Hey it only took me 2 words to say this. :-)

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I think all the kids turning to s#!t should wake up people, but then again not that many are willing to admit their kids have turned. I pretty much think it's hopeless, not from God's stand point of course, but hopeless that man will listen to anything God says too us now a days.

I heard at church yesterday while we were talking about current events, that the gay rights issues were voted down at the UN. Who voted them down? The Muslims. The US voted for them. Anyone else hear this? I find that rather ironic if it is true.

Becky

[IMRight]

They were a good "what if" but after that they stunk, no real Gospel in there, more about selling books than anything else.

Could be. At first I would have disagreed with you. Seeing best-selling fiction books for sale at Price Club and knowing that they at least speak of the things of Christ and give a basic Gospel message at least a couple times in each book made me feel pretty good. Now I think you are right. The author is just playing out the hand and Tim LaHaye has found that there isn't enough Revelation to account for a dozen books of fiction. They made the mistake of thinking that it was their writting skills that made the books attractive when it was the story line. I'm part way into the latest book in the series, and the connection to God seems much more tenuous (I think they ran out of ideas a couple books back).

I didn't see the series until the third one came out and I saw them on the best-seller shelves at Zondervan's (or whatever they're called now). So I picked one up on Saturday afternoon. The guy at the checkout counter said "you better get the other two now." I asked why and he said: "Because sometime tomorrow you're going to want the next book and we aren't open on Sundays." I decided to wait until I had read the first.

By four in the morning I had finished the book and realized he had been right. Now, of course, you can get them anywhere and I've had this one since Christmas and only started it yesterday since I was laid up in bed.

[SoothingDave]

It has to do with Apostolic succession more than with Peter or the keys

I (admittedly as a Proddie) see these as inseparable for y'all.

Any priesthood which has maintained a passing on by laying on of hands from any of the Apostles, carries on what we consider a valid priesthood. Like the Orthodox or some Anglicans.

Peter, with the keys, is the symbol of unity among all the apostles, and all the Christians. The question of how much authority Peter actually has and how it is exercised is the source of our schisms today. But that does not stop the Orthodox from being Apostolic.

Perhaps it can be best explained by looking at a modern day example. You have some groups who have broken with the Catholic church over Vatican II. These bishops, though no longer in league with the Pope, nonetheless can perform sacraments validly. And they can even create new priests by the laying on of hands validly. They do not do so licitly, that is according to Roman law, but they do so validly.

SD

[Wordsmith]

Sometimes I wonder at the ways God might be moving. Look at your post #23822 (which I hadn't read when I posted my response) and my post #23823. At almost the exact same time, too.

[SoothingDave]

Elijah was a man and he did ascend. But if he ascended to the same heaven Jesus came from, then is Jesus delusional?

Elijah did not ascend into heaven. Elijah was "taken up." God reached down and carried Elijah up. Jesus, being God, rose on his own power. There is a distinction of actor being made. This is why we say that Jesus Ascended into Heaven, while Mary was Assumed into heaven.

SD

[SoothingDave]

Could someone explain the "sharing in her Son's victory," part for me.

It means she was "saved." I and you and every Christian here expects to one day "share in her Son's victory."

SD

[Invincibly Ignorant]

#23823 Hey I thought I was the only one on these threads that ever said "up yours". :-)

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

What would it take, and how do we know it isn't already happening?

Any God-fearing, praying Christian can do as Daniel did. Compare to the Scriptures what we see happening right before our eyes, and you will know beyond any doubt that America is even now under the fury of God's curse for disobedience.

Moses listed in Deuteronomy 28 all the signs of the curse. We need to be reminded of these dreadful signs which shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe to do all his commandments" (Deuteronomy 28:15). I'll list just 12 of the fearful curses here:

1. A curse Upon Our Cities: "Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field" (Deuteronomy 28:16). American cities are doomed. Our own magazines have declared them to be Western "Beiruts" or war zones. Crack is tearing them apart. New York City is becoming unlivable. A murder occurs every five hours, a crime every 20 seconds. Our cities are headed for anarchy, and there is no turning back. Now it's spreading even to our smallest towns.

2. A Curse Upon Our Economy: "Cursed shall be thy basket and thy store" (Deut 28:17). This refers to gross national product, banking and reserves. A curse will fall upon it all, bringing confusion, fear and uncertainty. "I (will break) the staff of your bread" (see Leviticus 26:26) -- meaning widespread unemployment.

3. A Curse Upon Our Futures Market: "Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine (cattle), and the flocks of thy sheep" (Deut 28:18). This curse will fall on our crops and cattle.

4. A Curse Upon Our Foreign Negotiations: This curse will bring shame and embarrassment. "Cursed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and cursed shalt thou be when thou goest out. The Lord shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do...because of the wickedness of thy doings" (Deut 28:19-20). U.S. foreign policy today is in complete disarray! Our negotiators come home confused-- upstaged by Russia, upstaged in China. We appear befuddled before the whole world. President Bush is trying to turn this around, but its a hard after Bill Clinton has set us on this path.

5. Plagues of Incurable Illnesses: "The Lord shall make the pestilence (sickness) cleave unto thee...with a comsumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation" (Deut. 28:21,22). "The Lord will smite thee with the botch of Egypt...and with the scab...whereof thou canst not be healed. The Lord shall smite thee with madness, and blindness, and astonishment (panic) of heart (Deut. 28:27,28). "The Lord shall smite thee...with a sore botch (boil) that cannot be healed, from the sole of thy foot unto the top of thy head" (Deut. 28:35). The mark of AIDS is the purple blotch--the incurable boil.

6. Dust Bowls and Areas of Drought: "The Lord shall make the rain of thy land powder and dust: from heaven shall it come down upon thee" (Deut. 28:24). This is God's doing. All of it is sent from heaven!

7. Insignificant Enemies Will Put Our Armies to Chase: "The Lord shall cause thee to be smitten before them...And thy carcass shall be meat unto all fowls of the air" (Deut. 28:25,26). Think of the stalemate in Korea. Or our troops fleeing from Vietnam and being chased out of Lebanon. Or tiny Panama holding a gun to our head.

8. An Epidemic of Divorce: An epidemic of broken homes has erupted. "Thou shalt betroth a wife, and another man shll lie with her: thou shalt build a house, and thou shalt not dwell therein: thou shalt plant a vineyard, and shalt not gather the grapes thereof: (Deut. 28:30).

9. A Wave of Bankruptcies: "Thine ox shall be slain before thine eyes...thine ass shall be violently taken away from before thy face, and shall be given unto thine enemies, and thou shalt have none to rescue them:"(Deut. 28:31). This describes the ancient Oriental custom of the creditor taking everything from the debtor for restitution. It warns of the wave of bankruptcies that will come upon this cursed nation.

10. The Loss of an Entire Generation of Youth: "Thy sons and thy daughters shall be given unto another people, and thine eyes shall look, and fail with longing for them"(Deut. 28:32). Today a nation of adults, supplied with all money and might, can merely stand by and watch in horror as drugs and violence swallow up an entire population of youth. This Scripture is a prophetic warning about the despair that falls upon parents in a nation under the curse. "Thou shalt beget sons and daughters, but thou shalt not enjoy them; for they shall go into captivity' (Deut. 28:41).

11. The Prosperity of Other Nations at our Expense: "The stranger that is within thee shall get up above thee very high; and thou shalt come down very low" (Deut. 28:43). Hosea describes the blindness of people under this curse: "Strangers have devoured his strength, and he knoweth it not: yea, gray hairs are here and there upon him, yet he knoweth not: (Hosea 7:9). Whatever the crop, whatever the fruit, "The strangers shall swallow it up" (Hosea 8:7).

12. You will Become a Debtor Nation Rather than a Lender: "He shall lend to thee, and thou shalt not lend to him: he shall be the head, and thou shalt be the tail (Deut. 28:44). In the last five years we have become the world's biggest debtor nation. At this moment we are now the tail - and Japan is the head. We can't even bail out our own bankrupt savings and loan institutions. Consider the $150 billion that's needed to save our banking system -- and then tell me America is not under the curse! We are now experiencing the full fury of it!

BigMack

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

What was she saved from?

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Don't get me wrong. I'm excited to see the Lord. Whether that means I'm translated thru death or if I'm still alive I'm excited.

Me too! I don't care if its the "cloud route" or the "dirt clod route" :)

BigMack

[SoothingDave]

Sometimes I wonder at the ways God might be moving. Look at your post #23822 (which I hadn't read when I posted my response) and my post #23823. At almost the exact same time, too.

Amazing, isn't it? Often the topic here is Mary or some other practice the NC's find detracting from the glory of God. It becomes so that one is led to believe that Catholics or Orthodox spend an inordinate amount of time talking about Mary, when that really isn't true in real life.

I had posted here a long time ago that it almost seems like the beliefs we have about Mary are like a litmus test of sorts. One has to listen to the advice and tradition of the Church in order to assent to these teachings.

SD

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Hey it only took me 2 words to say this. :-)

Not all of us are blessed with that Abraham Linclon short and sweet kinda wisdom. :)

BigMack

[SoothingDave]

What was she saved from?

She was saved from becoming like the rest of the women she was among.

SD

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

So you don't believe in the rapture at all?

BigMack

[IMRight]

Hey I thought I was the only one on these threads that ever said "up yours".

You want I should send him a pink slip?

[DouglasKC]

Elijah was a man and he did ascend. But if he ascended to the same heaven Jesus came from, then is Jesus delusional?
Elijah did not ascend into heaven. Elijah was "taken up." God reached down and carried Elijah up. Jesus, being God, rose on his own power. There is a distinction of actor being made. This is why we say that Jesus Ascended into Heaven, while Mary was Assumed into heaven.

2Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still1 went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up5927 by a whirlwind into heaven.

The phrase "went up" is transalated from:

5927 `alah aw-law'
a primitive root; to ascend, intransitively (be high) or actively (mount); used in a great variety of senses, primary and secondary, literal and figurative (as follow):--arise (up), (cause to) ascend up, at once, break (the day) (up), bring (up), (cause to) burn, carry up, cast up, + shew, climb (up), (cause to, make to) come (up), cut off, dawn, depart, exalt, excel, fall, fetch up, get up, (make to) go (away, up); grow (over) increase, lay, leap, levy, lift (self) up, light, (make) up, X mention, mount up, offer, make to pay, + perfect, prefer, put (on), raise, recover, restore, (make to) rise (up), scale, set (up), shoot forth (up), (begin to) spring (up), stir up, take away (up), work.ords "went up" are translated from:

As you can see, the primary meaning is "ascend".

If your theology disagrees with this definition and with what Jesus said when he said "No man has ascended up to heaven...", then I'm going to put my money on the written word of the bible and the spoken words of Christ.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

By four in the morning I had finished the book and realized he had been right. Now, of course, you can get them anywhere and I've had this one since Christmas and only started it yesterday since I was laid up in bed.

I thought catholics didn't believe in the rapture.

BigMack