The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[SoothingDave]

The RCC claims that "only" those priests, bishops, archbishops, cardinals descended from from Peter and the authority given him along with the supposed "keys" have the "right, authority, ability" to change bread and wine into the body and blood -- not Anglicans, Orthodox, Lutherans, Presbyterians -- only those under the Pope of Rome. RCC theologians thus claim that Anglican, etc bread is just that -- bread and only bread..

You should write a book about all this stuff you don't know.

The Orthodox maintain a valid priesthood and their sacraments are considered valid. Amglicans have some valid priests, but as a rule, they've made a big mess of it. Once they started "ordaining" women any serious effort to maintain a valid priesthood was lost.

It has to do with Apostolic succession more than with Peter or the keys. And very little to do with Rome. If Peter never set foot in Rome, there would still be priests descended from the Apostles. If Jesus came a few humdred years later, then Constantinople would be the seat of the only Church.

SD

[SoothingDave]

But you're sure that Jesus went to the real Heaven, right?

How would you explain that fact that Jeroham got a letter from Elijah years after he had been taken away to heaven?

Poor mail delivery? He crossed over with Johnathan Edward?

Are messages from Heaven unheard of?

SD

[SoothingDave]

If that was an answer to my query, I am afraid it failed. I asked where Havoc got his notion that the Lord said that His Church was invisible. Nothing you posted about being born again comes close to saying that the Church is invisible.

SD

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Mary is ever referred to as "Theotokos" or "Mother of God" in Scripture? Since it is not in Scripture, where does that originate?

The most common tile for Mary in catholicism is the Mother of God. The reasoning given for this is as follows:

"Mary is really the mother of Jesus; and since Jesus is God, Mary is the mother of her Creator.

Joined to Christ the head and in communion with all his saints, the faithful must in the first place reverence the memory of the glorious Mother of God and of our Lord Jesus Christ" (VaticanII documents, "Dogmatic Constitution on the Church").

The catholics say I have a problem because I see Mary as the mother of Jesus and not the Mother of God. That I am seperating Jesus in two when he is only one. Read the last sentence in the above statements of the catholic belief. Mary is the mother of God AND of our Lord Jesus Christ. Who is seperating now?

Becky

[OLD REGGIE]

Congratulations Patriot fans. Your team played great in a great game. (The Super Bowl is always a great game when the Rams are in it, you can look it up). Now don't forget to be gracious winners. Is it me or did it seem like that last 1 minute and 30 seconds of the game was in slow motion?

I was in agony the entire 4th period. It certainly was a great game. I was preparing to give St. Louis credit for a great comeback. The Pats, last 1:21, no timeouts, 52 yards, 48 yard field goal which wasn't more than 1/2" off line, all ended as one of the greatest super bowl games ever.

[Wordsmith]

Well. If you believe that then whats all this stuff about the immaculate conception? Where Mary was born without sin?

The Immaculate Conception is a more recent RC doctrine, formulated since they split with the Orthodox. I'll try to give you a more complete answer later today, but the short answer is that we don't agree with the RC's about their interpretation of inherited guilt for Adam's original sin. We don't believe in any kind of Calvinistic doctrine of "total depravity."

We believe that Mary shared with all men in the sinful state of the world, but that at her core she like all men also preserved the image of God. Since we don't understand sin the way that the RC's do, we don't need a doctrine that - to us - seems to make Mary in to something different from all others.

This is a big topic, and is connected to things like the fact that the Orthodox don't believe in purgatory and that the Orthodox don't believe that an un-baptized infant is eternally condemned.

[SoothingDave]

The most common tile for Mary in catholicism is the Mother of God. The reasoning given for this is as follows:

"Mary is really the mother of Jesus; and since Jesus is God, Mary is the mother of her Creator.

Mary is the Mother of a Person who is God. That is the definition. Mary gave birth to Jesus. Jesus is a person who is truly God. Therefore, Mary carried and gave birth to a person who is God.

Joined to Christ the head and in communion with all his saints, the faithful must in the first place reverence the memory of the glorious Mother of God and of our Lord Jesus Christ" (VaticanII documents, "Dogmatic Constitution on the Church").

The catholics say I have a problem because I see Mary as the mother of Jesus and not the Mother of God. That I am seperating Jesus in two when he is only one. Read the last sentence in the above statements of the catholic belief. Mary is the mother of God AND of our Lord Jesus Christ. Who is seperating now?

LOL. I read it like this, and I bet the Latin reads the same way. The faithful must reverance the memory of the Mother of God and reverance the memory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

SD

[SoothingDave]

The Immaculate Conception is a more recent RC doctrine, formulated since they split with the Orthodox. I'll try to give you a more complete answer later today, but the short answer is that we don't agree with the RC's about their interpretation of inherited guilt for Adam's original sin. We don't believe in any kind of Calvinistic doctrine of "total depravity."

On other words, the Orthodox don't believe in Original Sin (in the Latin sense) in the first place, so they surely wouldn't have a doctrine whereby Mary was preserved from it!

SD

[OLD REGGIE]

We were getting the kids to bed when the fumble recovery for a touchdown was called back due to a holding penalty, so I didn't get to see what happened. Was the holding penalty a good call?

He not only held him, he tackled him, slipped off the tackle, and held onto his ankle for dear life. Who knows, if he didn't do that, Faulk might have caught a touchdown anyway.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

So we would not boast of Mary being "above" women.

Well if she's sinless she's way above me and any other women I know. Question? Did Mary realize she was a sinless human? If so at what point did she know it?

Becky

[malakhi]

The logical gymnastics are entertaining. It's a simple formula from freshman logic courses "If A implies B and B equals C than A implies C" If Mary is the Mother of Jesus and Jesus = God. Than Mary is the Mother of God. The logic can be broken in one of two ways. Either Mary is not the Mother of Jesus. Or Jesus is not God.

I think the problem is trying to apply logic to something that is not logical. How can you reason about a mystery?

[IMRight]

In Junior High

[malakhi]

"I returned and saw that under the sun, that the touchdown is not to the swift, nor the battle along the line to the strong, nor another's lunch to the wise, nor the win to men with the right game plan, nor the close calls to the best players, but fumbles and interceptions and the clock happeneth to them all." [WKV Ecclesiastes 9:11]

LOL, well done!

[IMRight]

Shhhhh!

Let me instruct you Angelo - Listen close.

One: Don't say "mystery". The NCs go bonkers.

Two: Most importantly. If we stop talking about things that are "mysteries".... the thread would dry up (except for the football arguments... can we move on to talking about the Padres now?)

[SoothingDave]

Did Mary realize she was a sinless human? If so at what point did she know it?

I'm not sure. Certainly humility is involved in living a decent life, but she certainly could not have been unaware of her unique role. She did have an angel come and tell her she had received God's favor, after all.

SD

[SoothingDave]

In Junior High

I think Scripture clearly shows that the Hebrews of that time used the "Middle School" system. Heretic! ;-)

SD

[SoothingDave]

I think the problem is trying to apply logic to something that is not logical. How can you reason about a mystery?

Blasphemy is like pornography. I know it when I see it. :-)

Seriously, we can use logic to lay out positions that we know are wrong. We know that anything other than affirming Mary as carrying God, leads to the logical conclusion that there was a time when the person of Jesus wasn't God.

SD

[Invincibly Ignorant]

I'm not sure. Certainly humility is involved in living a decent life, but she certainly could not have been unaware of her unique role. She did have an angel come and tell her she had received God's favor, after all.

Assuming Gabriel appeared to her for the first time at, perhaps, 14-16 years of age. She could not have been unaware of her unique role before that? Scripture please.

[IMRight]

There is no such distinction in the Greek.

[JWinNC]

Thank you RnMom and angelo!

Is he off FR completely? I know his old handle is not registered anymore. RnMom if you can get a message to him, tell him JWinNC was thinking about him. Tell him I wish him well and I'll remember his family in my prayers.

I'd love to hear from him. Thanks!

Peace,
JWinNC