The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
TNS Archives

[Iowegian]

I was just trying to make a point. I would never call your church the so-called orthodox church or the self-proclaimed orthodox church (except in this case - to help you see the other side of the same coin). If you had just left it at "Bible-based", we would have known who you meant, I think. I'm glad your service was useful for you.

[OLD REGGIE]

Please see your post 23221. I'm not sure if you wrote that concerning Peter being in Rome or it was in the article that included in your post.

My #23221 is a cut and paste. I made no other pretense. You must have missed this attribution at the end of the article:

by the late Rev. Alan Carl Prior

The Catholic Encyclopedia, and all other Catholic publications I have seen, list Peter as Pope - reign 32-67. I have seen no caveat suggesting he was Pope while Bishop of Antioch, while traveling, or any place other than Rome. It seems reasonable to me there must be some evidence to prove this claim. On a scale of 0-10 "Legend" is worth "0".

[Wordsmith]

God's spirit may be in us, but we are still free to reject where it leads us and as long as we have carnal bodies, we need to work on developing Godly character. It doesn't just "happen"...we need to listen to God, read his word, and obey his laws to develop Godly character.

DKC - I agree with you. Part of the traditional Orthodox preparation for Confession is comparing your actions against the 10 commandments, and meditating on where and how you may have violated them.

JH - You say, "a Christian child of God should never have to mention them to him self or question if he's keeping them perfectly, because if he has God's Spirit in him he will be."

I think I would make this a more conditional relationship. Something along the lines of "to the degree that he has God's Spirit in him, a Christian child of God should never have to mention them." As the individual Christian undergoes theosis, as he becomes more and more Christlike and the Spirit comes to dwell in him more and more powerfully, it would consequently come about that his actions would require less conscious reflection on the state of his progress towards God. But I, at least, and perhaps most Christians, are no where near this state of perfection. IMHO. :-) WS

[Wordsmith]

Was Peter rebuked for what he was teaching or what he was doing? - Distinction without a difference.

Agreed.

[OLD REGGIE]

I think that the 25 year story is legendary. Why would he go to the capital except to show the colors to a major Jewish community? Why wouldn't he go? Paul certainly went there. But Rome was hardly the place from which to run a community that was found largely in the east. That is,

Are you treading on thin ice (RC ice that is) when you suggest the story of the 25 year reign of Peter is nothing but legend? If this story is legendary what of the stories of his successors? There certainly is a paucity of "historical" knowledge. When, to your knowledge, did the story of the Papacy cease being legend and became fact?

[Wordsmith]

RobbyS, allend, fury: Please see #23523. I think this cuts to the heart of the Orthodox problem with the current authority claims of the Papacy as well. Thoughts?

[RobbyS]

Ever hear of the legend of Davy Crockett? It is a mixture of fact and unverifiable stories.

[Wordsmith]

We want to number God, count the rules, we think Jesus is found by getting the history right, in the right order; we try to explain too much, describe too much, argue too much — and become too little.

And long after that moment when Heaven touched earth and Jesus left this incarnation, long after his footprints disappeared, long after anyone still alive had heard his voice or seen his face, it is not through our theology or through our understanding that He finds us again.

Thank you, this is beautiful and a good warning to all of us to avoid the danger of getting caught up in legalisms and histories and canons and all such matters of human categorization. Any of which, while capable of being used in a Godly way, are capable of becoming idols as well.

"The Church gives us not a system, but a key; not a plan of God's City, but the means of entering it. Perhaps someone will lose his way because he has no plan. But all that he will see, he will see without a mediator, he will see it directly, it will be real for him; while he who has studied only the plan risks remaining outside and not really finding anything." - Fr. Georges Florovsky

"When Abba Zacharias was on the point of dying, Abba Moses asked him: 'What do you see?' And Abba Zacharias replied, 'Is it not better to say nothing, father?' 'Yes, my child,' said Abba Moses, 'it is better to say nothing.'" - The Sayings of the Desert Fathers

[OLD REGGIE]

Is it merely the "sent" notation refering to God? I don't have the rest of the text, and it certainly wasn't written in English so how could I know? But I think it's fair to say that he was an Apostle and God "sent" them wherever they went. One can argue that Paul was "sent" or "authorized" by the Acts 15 declaration (whether by Peter, James, or the 12 as a whole) to preach to the gentiles. But was he not still "sent" by God?

I hope you and your family are doing better. You all are in my prayers.

At this point I'm not certain how or why "sent" was used. I have been making a point that Peter was one Apostle with one vote. Whether the first appointed. Whether the "senior" of the group. No matter, he was one among equals.

Consider:

Acts 1:
23 And they put forward two, Joseph called Barsab'bas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthi'as.
24 And they prayed and said, "Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, show which one of these two thou hast chosen
25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside, to go to his own place."
26 And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthi'as; and he was enrolled with the eleven apostles.

Now, of course, the Holy Spirit was working within the Apostles but it was they who cast lots and selected Matthias. The Pope chooses his Cardinals. The Apostles chose their replacement. They, not Peter.
------------------------------------------------------------

Acts 8:14
Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Sama'ria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John,

THEY!!!!!! That is what I mean.

[Wordsmith]

The 'flock' is not to be 'passive' merely accepting the 'word' of the Pastor, but must be 'active' checking in their own souls the scriptures they have with the interpetation being given to them by the Pastor.

Agreed. Are we not all a "royal priesthood"? And I think that the implication of this truth is that the local "flock" is not separated from other local "flocks." We are all one in Christ Jesus. So this connection between congregation and pastor that you point to is revealed as a web of interconnection that includes all flocks, all pastors, all Christians.

But isn't it also true that the Christians of the past, those who have fallen asleep in the Lord, are equally a part of the flock of Christ? Don't they also play a part in the maintenance of true teaching that you highlight? I think so, which is why the prayers of the departed saints is as crucial to the life of the Church as the prayers of the saints walking the earth today. We are all part of one mystical Body.

[Quix]

REPLYING TO YOU MERELY BECAUSE YOU'RE AT THE TOP OF THE LIST SO I CAN POST THE FOLLOWING:

God's Winged Deliverers

WINGED DELIVERERS OF GOD
~author unknown~
WHETHER A TRUE STORY
OR NOT
(I suspect it is)
It IS the sort of thing
God seems to enjoy doing!

Walking along the long abandoned airfield's runway, Pastor Robert's mind was flooded with a river of memories. Not all these memories were bad, after all this was were he received his calling to the ministry from the Lord. As he stepped onto the cracked pavement, he gazed at the small flowers and tall grass that had grown between each of the cracks and his memories sharpened like it was only yesterday.

Once again he saw the powerful B-17 Flying Fortress aircraft sitting in wait ready to conquer the German strongholds of Europe. This England of today was much different than the England in his memories.

Pastor Roberts mind began to run the frames by him like a cinema presentation. Once again he was Major John Roberts of the United States Air Corps waiting for 134 Bomber Squadron to return from their bombing run over Frankfort Germany. That November day in 1944 now seemed more real than this July 4th day of 1999.

He heard the sound of a voice from behind him yell "Here they come, they look pretty shot up", as he spun around and saw the tower looking brand new with soldiers scurrying around. As he turned back around to face the runway he counted fourteen B-17 bombers heading his way on a landing approach. He quickly ran back toward the tower and watched in awe as the giant four engine fortresses sped toward them. Several were billowing smoke from feathered engines while several others had visibly had parts shot off. They were crippled perhaps but such a welcome sight to see coming from the Dovers.

As the aircraft began to land, the joy was quickly turned to horror as the skies again began to rumble with sounds of other aircraft. It was a squadron of German Stuka's. They're engines' whine had a droning sound that was like no other. They're aerodynamic design was reminiscent of a fearful dragon as they swooped down from the skies dropping bombs on the aircraft below that had just now come to a stop, not yet unloading their precious cargo of men. Eight wild cats managed to get off the ground and into the air to attack the fearful Stukas, but they were no-match for the dark winged grimaces. Major Roberts heard the screams from the men in the burning aircraft as the multiple explosions caused him to duck again and again from the exploding armaments still aboard. Three of the 17's just circled the field with their guns blazing hoping to just stay alive long enough to out last the Stukas so they could land before the last precious drops of fuel could be expended. One of the large war birds lost it's bet and plummeted to the ground in a fiery ball of flames.

Major Roberts knelt there on that field and began to pray. "Father, you have been the deliverer of your people throughout all the history of man. Father, I ask you once again to be our deliverer. We need your help Lord, we can not do this alone. Lord Jesus deliver us from the Philistines again," the Major prayed. Just when all hope seemed to be gone twenty-two knights in shining armor appeared out of the sun. Corsairs coming in with guns blazing like the cavalry coming to rescue the wagon train. The Stukas seemed to have been caught off guard, because those Corsairs had them dropping out of the skies like flies. The fire crews scurried to the downed aircraft and burning wreckage as quickly as they could.

Major Roberts, still somewhat in shock at what his eyes had beheld, had been praying the whole time. "Lord thank you for our deliverers that you have sent to us this day. Lord I feel your calling and I will follow you all the days of my life. Amen", he said with shaken voice. As he counted, there were six aircraft and two crews destroyed in the raid, but some twelve crews survived thanks to the valiant men of the Corsairs. As the Corsairs began to land, Major Roberts ran out to the runway to greet the Victors. Major Dick Rice came down from his blue shining bird of victory wiping the sweat from his brow. Major Roberts saluted him, shook his hand and even embraced him with tears in his eyes. "Major, we thought we were goners for sure. How in the world did you and your men get the message so fast that we were under attack?" cried the visibly shaken Major Roberts.

"Major you are not going to believe this, but we got here by accident. You see we were on a routine patrol when my compass froze up. I called to my wingman who also said his compass had frozen as well. For forty-five minutes we wandered aimlessly until we came up on this base. Sir not only did we not come here on purpose, I still do not know where we are." Major Roberts took a ground crew and went to each of the Corsairs to check the compasses. Each one read north, each one was frozen and each one had to be replaced. Major Roberts knew that day who sent those aircraft.

Now looking once again at the grass growing between the cracks, Pastor Roberts wiped the tears from his eyes. He walked over to the exact spot were he had prayed that prayer over 55 years ago and once again knelt down. "Father, once again I kneel here and recommit my life to you as I did fifty-five years ago. You have been faithful to me all these years, and I will continue to trust in you. Thank you Lord, for You have always been my deliverer."

Pastor Roberts arose to his feet and slowly walked off the field across what had once been a trash pile. He stumped his foot on something that almost made him trip and fall. He reached down and took hold of an object that was half buried in sand. As he lifted it to his eyes to examine it, he was filled with joy once again. It was an old aircraft compass. He took out his handkerchief and wiped away the years of dirt from it's face. The needle was still sitting on north. How wonderful of the Lord to remember the anniversary of Pastor Roberts' deliverance. Once again he lifted his eyes upward and thanked his wonderful Redeemer.

Brought to you by :
Pastor Paul Anderson
3740 Beacon View Dr.
Huber Heights, Ohio 45424
Email Pastor Paul
at

[the808bass]

Took me a bit of hunting. Luckily it was close to the front of this thread. I combined a few of my posts from that discussion. If you'd like clarification, feel free to ask.

Kecharitomene has nothing to do with who or what Mary was. Charitoo is simply to show grace to. Kecharitomene is a perfect participle in the middle/passive voice of charitoo^. In other words, Mary is being shown grace (thus the middle-passive), not on any necessary merit of her own, but as we all are shown grace. Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

Mary is the subject of the verb, but as it is in the middle/passive (there is only one way to denote the two voices in the perfect participle), she is being acted upon. When I say, "I was hit" it doesn't say a whole lot about me except what happened to me. It doesn't say that I have a quality of "hitness" which makes people hit me. That is the stretch which you are attempting to make when you say that the participle in the middle/passive shows us something about Mary. She is the object of grace (a far better translation of charitoo than favor, synonomous to the Hebrew word that is translated in KJV "favor" as in "Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord"). It's not that she has some "graceness" which causes her to be the object of grace.

[OLD REGGIE]

Ever hear of the legend of Davy Crockett? It is a mixture of fact and unverifiable stories.

(I mailed my answer to you by mistake. Senior moment). All you are missing are the facts.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

According to your interpretation, it should read "blessed are you and all women" - but it doesn't.

But it could, that's what the word among tells us. Any women who is saved by Jesus Christ will be blest. I am not saying ing any way that Mary was not special, she was, she was chosen by God to be the mother of His Son. But nowhere does scripture indicate she was sinless, or assumed into heaven.

IMO, using the word "among" does make her special and singles her out. Mary is the embodiment of perfect obedience.

Among in the dictionary means "in company or association with", now how does that "single" her out. That would be a stretch, IMO:)

Becky

[OLD REGGIE]

It's an understandable desire to lend historical credibility so that people can sleep at night... but it isn't "evidence" or "documentation".

Since you've been sick I'll not jump down your throat for taking my remark out of context. I was commenting on the fact that RobbyS, among other RC Apologists, have excused the absence of documentation on the "Peter in Rome" story or any other unverified story for that matter. The history was "lost" and that is sufficient. The same absence of documentation by any NC for their claims are derided with shouts of "prove it". What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Great post, Thank you.

Becky

[RobbyS]

Canonization is the recognition of what God has already done[ i.e. as inspired, by some authorized person(s)]< i> and to that extent, the Canon does define itself.

[Wordsmith]

Thanks! I'm not going to bother looking for anything different. I've got to get ready for the Super Bowl!

Let me add that this interpretation is consistent with the Orthodox understanding of Mary, which doesn't include any kind of doctrine of Immaculate Conception. We focus on her action of choosing to accept God's will for her, and the consequences of this action. But we also go further, and delve in to the kind of grace - unlike that shown to any other - that God bestows on Mary by making her the vehicle for the Incarnation.

Theoretically, this grace could have been bestowed on another woman. But it was not. It was bestowed on her. And changed her in a way beyond our comprehension. She is fully human, but also fully the Mother of God. The Child she bore was fully and indivisibly the divine second Person of the Holy Trinity. It is a mistake to say that she was only mother of Christ's "divine side." Christ has two natures, but is one Person. Attempting to divide Him in order to avoid the perceived danger of properly calling Mary Theotokos is, the Orthodox believe, a dangerous mistake.

We wouldn't say that my mother is the mother of the half of me that comes from her genes, would we? No. I am one person, and she is mother of that one person. Likewise, Christ is one Person, and she was mother of that one Person - God. Thus, Mary is Theotokos - Mother of God. This is the sole and entire reason to reverence her.

Do NC's reject this? Do they believe that the Person that Mary bore is not fully and indivisibly God? Is that why they deny to call her, in complete and reasonable accuracy, the Mother of God?

[Iowegian]

Yes that analysis is what I was referring to. Thanks for finding it and reposting it. Oh and I think New England will only get 6, no wait - 9 points, with 3 field goals. But what do I know?

[Cap'n Crunch]

Yeah, going to Church on Sunday is tradition. I've gotten into a few discussions with people who claim we changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. I listed scripture reference also but they rejected it. I also listed writings by different saints and it was rejected also.

And, let me ask you this if I may. Do you think there ever was "A Church?" Some people say there was and some don't. Some say it stopped being 'A' Church (or THEE Church) at point X in time, say 500 years after Christ.