The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

First, sacrifice is the normative means of atoning for sins. In the absence of this primary method, other means can be used. Let me offer an analogy. After a person becomes a Christian, it is normal that the person will be baptized. However, let's say the person is walking to church for his baptism, and it hit by a truck and killed. Is he saved? Yes, because while baptism is normative, it is not absolutely necessary.

Second is a variation of the first. It recognizes that sacrifice is normative, but considers our prayers asking for forgiveness to be a 'substitute' for the sacrifice--a "sacrifice of the lips".

Remember that even under the sacrificial system, a person had to repent and ask forgiveness. A sacrifice without repentence was worthless. The sacrifice is a symbolic act of offering something of value to God as a sign of our contrition or gratitude.

Very ellegant. Nicely put.

hmm. Seems someone is limiting God again. Can you also answer this question? If they have never heard of Christ (hypothetically speaking of course), then how are these people, who have sinned, justified before God?

JM

SD, Once a week is not a grevious burden.

How's about 52 times a year, and 3,120 times in a 60-year period.

Dude, that's like what? once a week? Not a grievous burden at all, according to you.

This is works, that do nothing for a man's salvation, other then making him think he is paying his way, which then does away with the free gift of salvation.

This is what you think it is. No Catholic who has been properly catechised thinks that having a fish sandwich is getting them straight into Heaven. It's preposterous. how about you stop characterizing every Catholic as a simpleton, a Pelagian simpleton at that?

Secondly, in this rapidly secularizing culture the removal of a weekly reminder to folks that Jesus died for us in a way that had a real impact on peoples' lives is hadly showing them "mercy." If anything it leads to a weakening of the faith and contributes to the coming of the "post-Christian" era.

I guess when it comes to the Spiritual part of salvation, we just can't get through to you.

I guess whenever something physical is involved we can't get through to you that it's still a spiritual exercise. Avoiding meat once a week is a thing we do spiritually. Just because matter is involved in some way doesn't make it bad.

If I follow your example then nothing is required of a Christian, at least nothing that involves self-sacrifice or matter.

How many people do you think who kept meatless Friday, came to know God from this mini sacrifice? It simply became a ritual that they kept every Friday with no consideration of what it represented.

First of all you are arguing again to the stupidity of Catholics. I think most Catholics know or knew why they were doing what they were doing. They didn't think "it's because we're Irish" or "we're Italian, it's what we do." It wasn't just a cultural artifact, it was done in remembrance of the specialness of that day.

The little Italian store down the street from me (a mom and pop 7-11 type) is closed on Good Friday from 12 to 3. Do you think they do this because it's a quaint "custom"? Do you think they think it's their ticket to Heaven? Is it possible they actually know why they do it?

That is why repetition is condemned in the word, because it becomes vain when man no longer puts his heart into it and simply does it because it's Friday again.

Speak for yourself. God condemns what is vain, not what is repetitious. God himself gave us things to "repeat."

SD

I'm still waiting on more specific parameters. . . but the Esteemed Great Pooh Bah has spoked. . . in a manner of speaking. . .

And, the aversion to prophetic docs seems currently to be unalterably terminal.

2 things. . .

1) IF you would like to consider the better such I run across, send me a private message and I'll make up a list of such folk to send such docs back to privately. . . either via FR private email or other private emails per your choice.

2) Am personally praying that IF AND WHEN such sensibilities matter to God, that He would cause such individuals to have their own dreams, visions which came true frequently or dramatically enough until they eagerly sought God out and humbled themselves before Him seeking WHATEVER HE WANTED in their lives. Perhaps you'd care to join in such a prayer.

Blessings, . . . been interesting!

I wonder if any attitudes will change if any such as have been posted come startlingly true.

I'm still waiting on more specific parameters. . . but the Esteemed Great Pooh Bah has spoked. . . in a manner of speaking. . .

And, the aversion to prophetic docs seems currently to be unalterably terminal.

2 things. . .

1) IF you would like to consider the better such I run across, send me a private message and I'll make up a list of such folk to send such docs back to privately. . . either via FR private email or other private emails per your choice.

2) Am personally praying that IF AND WHEN such sensibilities matter to God, that He would cause such individuals to have their own dreams, visions which came true frequently or dramatically enough until they eagerly sought God out and humbled themselves before Him seeking WHATEVER HE WANTED in their lives. Perhaps you'd care to join in such a prayer.

Blessings, . . . been interesting!

I wonder if any attitudes will change if any such as have been posted come startlingly true.

I'm still waiting on more specific parameters. . . but the Esteemed Great Pooh Bah has spoked. . . in a manner of speaking. . .

And, the aversion to prophetic docs seems currently to be unalterably terminal.

2 things. . .

1) IF you would like to consider the better such I run across, send me a private message and I'll make up a list of such folk to send such docs back to privately. . . either via FR private email or other private emails per your choice.

2) Am personally praying that IF AND WHEN such sensibilities matter to God, that He would cause such individuals to have their own dreams, visions which came true frequently or dramatically enough until they eagerly sought God out and humbled themselves before Him seeking WHATEVER HE WANTED in their lives. Perhaps you'd care to join in such a prayer.

Blessings, . . . been interesting!

I wonder if any attitudes will change if any such as have been posted come startlingly true.

I'm still waiting on more specific parameters. . . but the Esteemed Great Pooh Bah has spoked. . . in a manner of speaking. . .

And, the aversion to prophetic docs seems currently to be unalterably terminal.

2 things. . .

1) IF you would like to consider the better such I run across, send me a private message and I'll make up a list of such folk to send such docs back to privately. . . either via FR private email or other private emails per your choice.

2) Am personally praying that IF AND WHEN such sensibilities matter to God, that He would cause such individuals to have their own dreams, visions which came true frequently or dramatically enough until they eagerly sought God out and humbled themselves before Him seeking WHATEVER HE WANTED in their lives. Perhaps you'd care to join in such a prayer.

Blessings, . . . been interesting!

I wonder if any attitudes will change if any such as have been posted come startlingly true.

once again you have not quoted a verse, just reasoning of man.

Maybe you can take on angelo's question from yesterday. Is the Bible the only source of truth? That is, if it isn't in the Bible it can't possibly be true?

My follow-on question: Does reason, true reason, lead us to or away from God?

SD

I'm still waiting on more specific parameters. . . but the Esteemed Great Pooh Bah has spoked. . . in a manner of speaking. . .

And, the aversion to prophetic docs seems currently to be unalterably terminal.

2 things. . .

1) IF you would like to consider the better such I run across, send me a private message and I'll make up a list of such folk to send such docs back to privately. . . either via FR private email or other private emails per your choice.

2) Am personally praying that IF AND WHEN such sensibilities matter to God, that He would cause such individuals to have their own dreams, visions which came true frequently or dramatically enough until they eagerly sought God out and humbled themselves before Him seeking WHATEVER HE WANTED in their lives. Perhaps you'd care to join in such a prayer.

Blessings, . . . been interesting!

I wonder if any attitudes will change if any such as have been posted come startlingly true.

However,we can show in the official documents and the Canons and the Catechism that it is not Catholic teaching.

Methinks you are being hypocritical. What the "faithful" learn in their homes, community, local Parish, school, etc. is the key. It is what they understand and what they do that really matters!

Just for the record, what % of RC's have ever read the Catechism, "official" Church documents, the Canon, and, for that matter, the Bible?

I'm still waiting on more specific parameters. . . but the Esteemed Great Pooh Bah has spoked. . . in a manner of speaking. . .

And, the aversion to prophetic docs seems currently to be unalterably terminal.

2 things. . .

1) IF you would like to consider the better such I run across, send me a private message and I'll make up a list of such folk to send such docs back to privately. . . either via FR private email or other private emails per your choice.

2) Am personally praying that IF AND WHEN such sensibilities matter to God, that He would cause such individuals to have their own dreams, visions which came true frequently or dramatically enough until they eagerly sought God out and humbled themselves before Him seeking WHATEVER HE WANTED in their lives. Perhaps you'd care to join in such a prayer.

Blessings, . . . been interesting!

I wonder if any attitudes will change if any such as have been posted come startlingly true.

I'm still waiting on more specific parameters. . . but the Esteemed Great Pooh Bah has spoked. . . in a manner of speaking. . .

And, the aversion to prophetic docs seems currently to be unalterably terminal.

2 things. . .

1) IF you would like to consider the better such I run across, send me a private message and I'll make up a list of such folk to send such docs back to privately. . . either via FR private email or other private emails per your choice.

2) Am personally praying that IF AND WHEN such sensibilities matter to God, that He would cause such individuals to have their own dreams, visions which came true frequently or dramatically enough until they eagerly sought God out and humbled themselves before Him seeking WHATEVER HE WANTED in their lives. Perhaps you'd care to join in such a prayer.

Blessings, . . . been interesting!

I wonder if any attitudes will change if any such as have been posted come startlingly true.

Im agreeing with the Catholics in principle. That principle being that if you do things with meaning that increase your relationship with God, then by all means do it. If you are doing something because the church said so, or bobby said so, or in vanity than I would caution one agianst it, because there is no life in it. So if the Catholic brothers and sister do this because it brings them closer to God and not because the church demands it, then I would not say anything to disrupt that.

JM

Then why does the Pope making the same arguments we make startle you?

Nothing catholics do startle me. I'm just about done.

BigMack

I'm still waiting on more specific parameters. . . but the Esteemed Great Pooh Bah has spoked. . . in a manner of speaking. . .

And, the aversion to prophetic docs seems currently to be unalterably terminal.

2 things. . .

1) IF you would like to consider the better such I run across, send me a private message and I'll make up a list of such folk to send such docs back to privately. . . either via FR private email or other private emails per your choice.

2) Am personally praying that IF AND WHEN such sensibilities matter to God, that He would cause such individuals to have their own dreams, visions which came true frequently or dramatically enough until they eagerly sought God out and humbled themselves before Him seeking WHATEVER HE WANTED in their lives. Perhaps you'd care to join in such a prayer.

Blessings, . . . been interesting!

I wonder if any attitudes will change if any such as have been posted come startlingly true.

Thanks for reminding me, Dave, I'd forgotten about that.

hopeful, I asked you this yesterday:

Disregarding the specific issue in question, let me ask you this: are you saying that, in general, if something is not in scripture, then it is not true?

I don't recall seeing your reply. If you did, can you point me to your reply #? If not, can you answer it?

I'm still waiting on more specific parameters. . . but, the aversion to prophetic docs seems currently to be unalterably terminal.

2 things. . .

1) IF you would like to consider the better such I run across, send me a private message and I'll make up a list of such folk to send such docs back to privately. . . either via FR private email or other private emails per your choice.

2) Am personally praying that IF AND WHEN such sensibilities matter to God, that He would cause such individuals to have their own dreams, visions which came true frequently or dramatically enough until they eagerly sought God out and humbled themselves before Him seeking WHATEVER HE WANTED in their lives. Perhaps you'd care to join in such a prayer.

Blessings, . . . been interesting!

I wonder if any attitudes will change if any such as have been posted come startlingly true.

I'm still waiting on more specific parameters. . . but, the aversion to prophetic docs seems currently to be unalterably terminal.

2 things. . .

1) IF you would like to consider the better such I run across, send me a private message and I'll make up a list of such folk to send such docs back to privately. . . either via FR private email or other private emails per your choice.

2) Am personally praying that IF AND WHEN such sensibilities matter to God, that He would cause such individuals to have their own dreams, visions which came true frequently or dramatically enough until they eagerly sought God out and humbled themselves before Him seeking WHATEVER HE WANTED in their lives. Perhaps you'd care to join in such a prayer.

Blessings, . . . been interesting!

I wonder if any attitudes will change if any such as have been posted come startlingly true.

I understood the first four messages you posted, but I'm a little confused by what you meant with the last couple. Could you repeat the post?