The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[JohnnyM]

"In the end, Jesus was fully God and fully man"

On that point, I think we can all agree.

JM

[SoothingDave]

Maybe I can clarify the viewpoints here. PNAMBC is not saying that Jesus was not God in the womb. She is saying that Jesus received his humanity from Mary and his divinity from the Holy Spirit at conception. When a baby is conceived it gets traits from both the father and the mother. So Jesus received His humanity (trait) from Mary and His divinity (trait) from the Holy Spirit. Jesus is 100% God and 100% man. He was 100% man and 100% God in Mary's womb as well, but He did not receive His divinity from Mary, but rather from the Holy Spirit. Receive here may not be the best term as it presupposes not having, but I hope you see what I am getting at.

Thank you. Yes I do see your point, but I wonder if any see mine. Theotokos does not mean that Mary created God, or gave Jesus his divinity, or any of those things.

Yet every, every, Protestant here objects to the term because of what it explicitly does not mean. I can accept that some untaught folks will misunderstand the concept. But why do those who are told exactly what the term means and what it does not mean insist on fighting against what it does not mean?

SD

[malakhi]

OK, we have:

1. Satan is real.

2. He is the 'ruler of this world'.

3. His 'job' is to tempt us into sin.

4. His powers fall way short of God's, and he will never overcome that.

Anything else? Anyone? Or does this pretty much cover it?

[SoothingDave]

For the last time, what makes you think the word "brother" means "from the same uterus" when we know that the culture and language of Jesus did not use the word exclusively in that manner?

SD

[al_c]

No man is able to stand before God and say that he turned away from God because God did not give any light.

"turned away from" does not equal "does not know anything about"

[JohnnyM]

"At this point, I must again ask what of those who have never been exposed to any of this? Are they destined for eternal death?"

I beleive that everyone will be exposed to this at one point in their life. Romans also answers this question.

Romans 1:18-20
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

JM

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

This was one of those things that I was trying to tell Dave about before. That when you start asking or looking at things like this you open Pandora's Box. There are somethings that I beleive God wants us to take on faith. But if a "Protestant" (how I hate that label:) uses that to answer a question from you guys you laugh and say it is a cop out. That's why I TRY to avoid those discussuions, but Dave is a very presistent person:)

BEcky

[al_c]

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

Keep reading ... Rom 2: 13-16

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Why can't anybody answer this question? At least Becky had the honesty to say she agreed with both statements but didn't like the conclusion. What about you?

I believe this is what I said..

It is true that Jesus Christ is God the Son, and Mary was the mother of Jesus, but the New Testament does not even hint that Mary should be thought of as the mother of God. Jesus Christ, as God the Son, had no beginning.

What about all you Protestants? Care to take on the Catholic teaching on Theotokos, or do you like cuddling with your straw men?

Naw, we want to stick with this one because your having so much trouble with it.

BigMack

[JohnnyM]

I have no problems with saying Mary is the mother of Jesus, but the RC doctrine states, correct me if I'm wrong, that Mary had to have been sinless in order to conceive Jesus in her womb, which implies that she passed on divinity to Christ, which is what I object to.

JM

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Creation itself speaks of God. Even if you have not been told, or read about him he is revealed in creation. What the person does with that revelation is between the person and God.

Becky

[SoothingDave]

Theotokos

You may already have, but could you define this word?

Theotokos literally, in Greek, means "God bearer" as in "one who carries" as in "to carry a child" as in "to be the mother of." The translation into "mother" is the problematic one for most and may be more of an English thing than Greek.

What it asserts is that Mary had in her womb a person who was God.

That's it. Mary carried God. She did not create God, she did not exist before God, she is not due an honor higher than God's. When God decided, actually when the Second Prrson of God decided, to become man he chose Mary to bring Him into the world. Mary gave birth to a person who is God.

The pronouncement of this doctrine arose from people denying that Jesus was God, or was eternally God (that Jesus "became" God at some point of his life, etc.) It is meant to show that at no time was there a person named Jesus who was only human. From His Conception He was a person both human and God.

SD

[malakhi]

On that point, I think we can all agree.

Ahem... ;o)

[SoothingDave]

I have no problems with saying Mary is the mother of Jesus, but the RC doctrine states, correct me if I'm wrong, that Mary had to have been sinless in order to conceive Jesus in her womb, which implies that she passed on divinity to Christ, which is what I object to.

Mary did not "pass on" divinity to Jesus. Mary is not divine!

Mary was preserved from Original Sin, the blot on all of us from Adam's sin. It would not be fitting that God be born subject to sin, in fact it makes no sense to speak of a God who has a nature or a tendency to sin. So Mary, who was to serve as God's "home" for 9 months did not have Original Sin to pass on to Jesus.

Mary being made free from OS is not why Jesus is God. Rather Jesus being God is why Mary was made free from OS. To be a worthy resting place for God himself.

(BTW, being without sin is a necessary condition of one who is divine. But it is not sufficient. A human without any sin is still human. Adam and Eve did not have OS to pass on to their children. And if they had not sinned their children would not have OS. But it doesn't make Adam and Eve, or Mary divine.)

SD

[Iowegian]

A sad condition among many of our local churches; too much PC, too little JC.

Hey, I like that statement, can I use it? To your question, every church I have been a part of has women as deaconesses and some teachers (to children and other women) but other leaders (pastors, elders and deacons) are men. Welcome and jump in anytime.

[SoothingDave]

We should probably add something as to Satan being very charming and deceptive.

SD

[malakhi]

Do you think this passage has any bearing on the question regarding those who have never heard the gospel?

[14] When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. [15] They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them (Romans 2:14-15)

[SoothingDave]

I almost forgot, today's Sentence of the Day

Relatively speaking, there is very little in the scriptures which is difficult to comprehend once it is translated into one's own language.

SD