The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[RobbyS]

The whole issue will be settled only if someone replicates the image on the same sort of cloth. Then the question would be how it was originally done.

[SoothingDave]

It's my guess that they will discuss it, but will choose their words EXTRA carefully just in case the Vatican does eventually come out with something definitive, so that they won't get caught too far outside the camp.

There are only two possibilities here, ksen. And ascribing such motives to us doesn't bear well for creating a Christian atmosphere here.

If the Shroud were somehow determined to be authentic, which I personally tend to believe, it would be a holy relic, perhaps the holiest, and would be worthy of veneration. And contemplation. It would not bring about any changes in the faith, would not mean that Catholic doctrine or practice would change at all. If people make pilgrimages to see it and are helped spiritually by seeing and contemplating the life and death and resurrection of Jesus, then all for the better, right? If the image makes people realize what Jesus did for us and brings people to repentence, then who is harmed?

I must say, cause we will get accused of idol worship, that any experience or feeling or contemplation that people get while viewing the garment would not be aimed at the cloth itself, but rather be the result of a true experience of the power of God, working in peoples' souls.

The other possibility is that the Shroud is a fraud. If this were conclusively determined, then again nothing is changed. Doctrine and practice remain the same, it does not void the reality of Jesus' death or resurrection. The term "pious fraud" doesn't sound out of line. If believing that the image were true brought even one person to a true repentence, it was worthy.

So given that we will probably never be able to say one way or the other that it really touched Jesus or it is a known fraud, it is a prudence that the Church officially stays out of it. She neither commands all to believe what the Shroud claims to be, nor forbids a pious belief that does not lead to fanaticism and an unhealthy obsession.

One should not believe the claims about Jesus because of a relic whose authenticity might be questionable. One should believe in Jesus because of the testimony in the Church and the Bible.

Personally, I don't see why certain people have an animosity towards the Shroud. What if it was what it claims?

SD

[vmatt]

As interpreters, if we can understand the author, the audience, the situation, and the literary genre as well as possible, we are in a good position to put ourselves in the audience and understand the words and, more important, the message of the section that is being interpreted. Interpretation requires us to become, to the best of our abilities, part of the original audience. The message to them is the same as the message to us.

Wow, as angelo said. Thanks, Ksen.

[trad_anglican]

Personally, I don't see why certain people have an animosity towards the Shroud.

I think it's the "friend of my enemy" syndrom (or would that be sindonrom in this case?). I was almost convinced for a time that it was a photograph, until I read that there is no image underneath the blood stains which, to me, eliminates the most likely method of forgery. I don't think any other method would prove so baffling to modern science. Which leads to the probablilty that it is authentic.

Especially when you add the shroud of Oviedo into the picture.

[SoothingDave]

I was almost convinced for a time that it was a photograph, until I read that there is no image underneath the blood stains which, to me, eliminates the most likely method of forgery.

I'm not sure how you would think it was a photograph. A photograph of what?

And it certainly dates to a time well before photographic science was discovered. What always got me was when they look at the marks, you can see there is three dimensional information contained within. If it was a painting, no painter at the time would know how to do this.

SD

[ksen]

There are only two possibilities here, ksen. And ascribing such motives to us doesn't bear well for creating a Christian atmosphere here.

Well, so much for my trying to only post with Christian love. I didn't mean to offend you, I made a bad joke and forgot the "smiley".

Personally, it doesn't bother me one way or the other if the Shroud bears Christ's image or not. It would only be a curiosity if it did bear the likeness of Jesus, with no bearing on my eternal destiny.

On a side note with respect to Catholic Iconography (hope I'm using the right word). How do you know those statues and pictures of Mary really look like her? It seems kind of odd that a 13-16 year old Jewish girl is always pictured as an Anglo woman in her, probably, thirties.

-ksen

[Invincibly Ignorant]

It seems kind of odd that a 13-16 year old Jewish girl is always pictured as an Anglo woman in her, probably, thirties.

Ya that's wierd. Although Jesus usually looks like a caucasian rock star.

[trad_anglican]

A photograph of what?

A photograph of a model of a crucified man. There is some evidence that pin hole camera techniques were known hundreds of years before the introduction of modern photographic techniques. Facts can't be wrong. Assumptions can be. It is an assumption (albeit well founded) that there was no knowledge of any photographic techniques until the 18th century.

[trad_anglican]

What always got me was when they look at the marks, you can see there is three dimensional information contained within.

A pinhole camera (or camera obscura) could produce those because some spots on the object actually are farther away from the medium than others. That was one of the things that was so intriguing to me about the possibility. But I don't think it could be because the bloodstains would have to have been made over the image but there is no image under the bloodstains.

[SoothingDave]

On a side note with respect to Catholic Iconography (hope I'm using the right word). How do you know those statues and pictures of Mary really look like her? It seems kind of odd that a 13-16 year old Jewish girl is always pictured as an Anglo woman in her, probably, thirties.

I don't. As a matter of fact, the image of Mary seen by Juan Diego was that of a woman with darker skin. It's possible that different cultures tend to reflect their own biases into their art, Scandinavian Jesuses being blonder than Sicilian ones.

It is also true that much artwork is meant to display a perfected image and is not meant display the idiosyncratic facial qualities of the person represented.

That is, the picture of Mary doesn't have to actually be a 100 percent accurate image of who she is. It is the idea of Mary, the person, who is to be thought of when viewing the image.

It is what makes the Shroud interesting, for if it is what is says it is some type of true image of the actual man.

SD

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Hey Steven, I just beat solitaire in under 4 mins, 3.78 and a score of 3641. My life is over, I can't beat that, I'm going outside and shoot myself.

BigMack

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Hey Steven, I just beat solitaire in under 4 mins, 3.78 and a score of 3641.

You mean that solitare that comes with windows?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

You mean that solitare that comes with windows?

Yes

BigMack

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Yes

Instead of shooting your self. Go to the "options" and change your game from standard to vegas and keep track of your money total. You'll have fresh goals. lol.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Nincompoop though I may be, I can still see my posts of sufficient intellectual caliber that you are reduced to nothing but crude insults in reply. HeHeHe!

You mean "this" type of intellectual caliber?

allend: to angelo: "We could point out all the nasty things you Jews did to the Christians back in the early centuries, when you had the upper hand. The only reason you haven't continued those atrocties to this day is that we never let you have the upper hand after that."

I'm already visualising the duct tape over your mouth. I'm not being rude. You're just insignificant. I'm trying to imagine you with a personality. I don't know what your problem is, but I'll bet it's hard to pronounce. You are validating my inherent mistrust of strangers. What am I? Flypaper for freaks!?

You are weary, stale, flat and unprofitable. You are grimy, squalid. You are foul and disgusting. You're a fool, an ignoramus. Monkeys look down on you. Even sheep won't have sex with you. Your hand even refuses autoerotism. You are unreservedly pathetic, starved for attention, and lost in a land that reality forgot. You are the epitome of conceit, the flea, floating down a river with an erection, screaming, to those that care, "Open up the damn drawbridge".

This is my last and final post to you, please do us all a favor and quit the forum, so the next time anyone clicks on your screen name this shows up, No current Freeper by that name.

If I throw a stick, will you leave?

BigMack

[RobbyS]

What if it was what it claims? The mind boggles.

[ksen]

Morning Dave & Everyone else following the NFL playoffs,

I read this column this morning and thought you might enjoy it. The quote picks up halfway through Dan Shaughnessy’s column this morning in the Boston Globe.

…But there has been an unusual amount of good fortune riding shotgun in New England this season. The call that enabled the Patriots to win Saturday was about as legit as the sale of the Red Sox. Whether it's a bogus rule or a bad interpretation of the rule, the Raiders were robbed and the Patriots were saved by a loophole.

Given a new life, the Patriots still had to move the ball downfield. Adam Vinatieri still had to make an impossible field goal. Brady still had to complete 32 passes in a mini-blizzard. Given the opportunity, the Patriots won on merit.

But all this good luck is so unusual. Did you notice that New England won the coin toss before overtime? Of course. Oakland never got a chance to touch the ball in the snowy extra innings.

It's standard stuff this starry season. The planets are in line. The Patriots got every break they needed down the stretch. The Jets lost to give the Patriots a playoff home game, then the Jets won to give Patriots a first-round bye. We should have known what was in store when David Patten won a game in Buffalo when a fumbled football came into contact with his leg while he lay unconscious with his head out of bounds.

In this Patriot winter, fans must suspend all logic and reason. Forget everything you ever learned. It's sort of like preparing for a career in sports talk radio.

Asked to explain the ''destiny'' angle, coach Bill Belichick said, ''When you are hustling and your players are playing hard, then you have a tendency to come up with a tipped ball. Then you make your own breaks.''

True. And that is what the Patriots are doing. But here in these parts, we don't know what to make of this sudden good fortune.

Historically, we've been the ones getting robbed and jobbed. We're the ones who get our pockets picked. We've been the saps on the wrong side of the bad breaks and bad calls.

Look no further than the Patriots. They lost the first 10 overtime games they played. Between 1977-87, New England was 0-10 in overtime. They were Team Misfortune. That's why Walt Coleman's reversal of Brady's fumble was immediately interpreted as revenge for the bad call Ben Dreith made on Sugar Bear Hamilton 25 years ago.

The bad karma extends to all of our franchises.

The Bruins had too many men on the ice and lost in Montreal. Stars Bobby Orr, Cam Neely, and Gord Kluzak had careers cut short by injuries.

The Celtics didn't get Tim Duncan when all the odds favored Boston getting the top pick in the draft. After winning their 16th championship in 1986, the Celtics embarked on a 15-year streak of futility, the darkest days in franchise history.

And then there are the Red Sox, poster boys for bad luck in sports. Luis Aparicio falls down rounding third base. Larry Barnett blows the call on Ed Armbrister's bunt. Enos Slaughter. Bucky Dent. Bill Buckner.

Remember the two blown calls when the Red Sox played the Yankees in the 1999 American League Championship Series? American League umpires actually submitted written apologies. It would happen only to the Red Sox. It could only happen to us here in New England. And it has created a sky-is-falling mentality.

That's why the Patriots' instant replay/instant karma is so hard to accept. We've been trained to expect the breaks to go against us.

These Patriots are different. They get all the breaks. And now they are one game from a trip to the Super Bowl. They are underdogs but we have learned not to bet against them. Something always happens. They've got the good karma and cosmic rays. The larger forces are with them.

Forget what the oddsmakers say. Pittsburgh has the Bus. New England has the magic bus.

Dan Shaughnessy is a Globe columnist. His e-mail address is dshaughnessy@globe.com.

This story ran on page D1 of the Boston Globe on 1/22/2002. © Copyright 2002 Globe Newspaper Company.

Normally I can’t stand the Globe, but I think they have one of the best sports section in the nation.

-ksen

[Frumanchu]

vmatt, do you have a link or links to some good preterist resources online? I'm curious to see what the preterist view is on some of the prophesies (mark of the beast, two witnesses, etc.).

On a side note, has anyone heard that song I Can Only Imagine by MercyMe? Fantastic song!

I can only imagine
What it will be like
When I walk
By your side
I can only imagine
What my eyes will see
When your face
Is before me
I can only imagine...

Surrounded by Your glory, what will my heart feel?
Will I dance for you Jesus or in awe of you be still?
Will I stand in your presence or to my knees will I fall?
Will I sing hallelujah? Will I be able to speak at all?
I can only imagine...

I can only imagine
When that day comes
And I find myself
Standing in the Son
I can only imagine
When all I will do
Is forever
Forever worship You
I can only imagine...

[SoothingDave]

Nice column. Nice attitude. We're going with the "we're ticked off because our #1 defense only got one guy selected to the Pro Bowl" attitude.

Boston sports hasn't been all bad. You got that Flutie pass thing. And BC once handed an otherwise unbeaten Notre Dame its only loss.

Of course, given pre-season predictions of slightly better than a mediocre season, this entire year has been a bit of a Cinderella story for Pittsburgh as well.

May the best fairy tale win.

SD