The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[don-o]

St. Nicholas Day greetings. Thank you.

I am in an old calendar parish (St Nicholas) and we will celebrate the feast on the 19th. But the 6th is also a significant day in the don-o household. It was four ago today that we saw our first picture of a delightful Siberean orphan who is not our son Vanya.

When we adopted him in America we were allowed to change his birthdate, so we chose December 6.

[Romulus]

A very Happy Birthday to Vanya!

[ksen]

What most people fail to understand and see, is our old sinful nature that died when we were born again is still right there with us all the time, and it does seem some are full of the Evil one or has invaded us.

For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do [Rom. 7:19].

Have you experienced this?

You bet I have!

Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me [Rom. 7:20].

It is that old nature, my friend, that is causing us trouble.

Mmm, I agree. I think too many of us try pin every temptation or failing we experience as being inspired by Satan. They forget that our old nature is still within us. In my view, Satan gets way too much credit for the trouble we get ourselves into. I think he is more into grand schemes like setting up the latest false religion in order to lure people away from the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me [Rom. 7:21].

When you are attempting to serve God in the Spirit, have you discovered that the old nature is right there to bring evil? Perhaps an evil thought will come into your mind. Every child of God, regardless of his state, must admit that in every act and in every moment evil is present with him. Failure to recognize this will eventually lead to shipwreck in the Christian life.[Emphasis BigMack’s]

All I can say to that is “Amen!”

-ksen

[malakhi]

I can only wonder how some of this sounds to you.

Well, keep in mind that I was raised within Christianity, so I am familiar with the writings and understand (as well as one can) the theology, even if I don't agree that it is true.

[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

However, unless one is prepared to say Our Lord's conception was illegitimate,

You are looking at the requirement of marriage before intercourse as your reasoning here.
God did not need to have intercourse to put Himself in Mary in the human form. Legitimacy is not an issue because, as you said, Jesus was all God, egg and everything. We cannot consider our human, God placed, restrictions to reason how Christ is or is not illegitimate.

I don't think trying to explain His legitimacy is even an argument worth time.
The act, as a whole, was a miracle and needs to be viewed outside the context of normal births where marriage and intercourse are required. (Well, intercourse isn't needed any longer for mans purposes.)

[DouglasKC]

When you are attempting to serve God in the Spirit, have you discovered that the old nature is right there to bring evil? Perhaps an evil thought will come into your mind. Every child of God, regardless of his state, must admit that in every act and in every moment evil is present with him. Failure to recognize this will eventually lead to shipwreck in the Christian life.

Absolutely agree. As long as we are carnal/physical creatures, we will be subject to carnal/physical sins both of the body and of the mind.

[malakhi]

And pray tell what THAT means. One gets the god of Voltaire, whose chief characteristics is that He never interfers in the affairs of men, much less shows Himself.

Huh? No, I mean the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He who revealed Himself to mankind and to Israel in the Hebrew scriptures. He who most assuredly has 'interfered in the affairs of men'. THAT God.

[vmatt]

I notice you haven't responded to my post about there being no God besides Him. So if Christ is another God, is God lying in the OT??

Of course God is not lying. Let God be true and all men liars. Let me take one verse you presented and try to explain my beliefs. These are excellent points you make and not easy to answer.

Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

"Before me there was no God formed." These verses refer to Christ as pre-existed I hope we agree there. See KCDouglas' post about man not seeing God at any time. Christ was the only begotten of the Father, God. He had a beginning but the Father did not. This identifies a God who was "formed". The Father, in contrast, always was, had no beginning and was not formed by anything.

(Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:)

11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

This points to Christ as saviour, not His Father. Beside him, Christ, there is no saviour.

12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

This verse establishes the context of there being no other God in relation to false gods of the heathen Israel always struggled with.

Here is a verse you failed to cite and one which I cannot answer. It is the only place I know where Christ is referred to as Father. My understanding is not perfected, this is why I am here. Thank you for pressing me on these points. I want no deception in me. I don't have all the answers but trinity doctrine does not resolve these problems.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

[malakhi]

Hi Reg. Yep, you were right on target with what I was saying.

My Unitarian self tells me I don't have to worry my little head with it.

I've seen you make allusions to this, but are you saying that you are a Unitarian, or are you joking because someone else called you this? Perhaps I missed something you posted along the way.

[malakhi]

You have freepmail.

[saradippity]

I didn;t mean to imply that man is not responsible for most of the bad stuff but I do think there is a moral societal blindness that is either the result of a lot of people using their free will to choose evil not God or a Satanic influence permeating the world. Just thinkin about things.Thanks for your thoughts.

[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

The answer is that Catholics worship God alone. If you find any evidence to the contrary in the on-line Catechism of the Catholic Church , let me know.

Some may not. I give you that. And reguardless of what your books say, the amount of reverence given Mary by the Catholics I am married in to (in law's) is clearly "worship" however you try to explain away your reasoning. Some here I would say give her reverence bordering on worship based on what I read.
However, the worst of all is attributing charectoristics of Christ's sole job of being our Mediator/Advocate to Mary.

That is truely "antichrist" in my opinion.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Mmm, I agree. I think too many of us try pin every temptation or failing we experience as being inspired by Satan. They forget that our old nature is still within us. In my view, Satan gets way too much credit for the trouble we get ourselves into.

You remember the old Flip Wilson show and when he would say the Devil made me do it? The Devil didn't make us do anything, our old nature wanted to, so we give in and walk in the flesh instead of turning to Jesus and his power to help us walk in the Spirit. This has been a major cop out sense the beginning of the church!

BigMack

[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

My Bible clearly shows Mary and the Holy Spirit having a child together. (And we do believe that the humanity of Jesus is from His mother.) As was pointed out last night, your argument essentially makes Jesus a bastard. It is in this sense only that Mary is considered the "spouse" of the Holy Spirit.

One thing you amaze me with:
You are willing to say that God doesn't love if there is not an authoritative church
and that Jesus is a "bastard" if the Spirit wasn't married to Mary.

You better check yourself!!

Somehow if God doesn't fit into your rationale, He is UNLOVING and a BASTARD!!??
Read my post a couple back on legitimacy.

[malakhi]

Elohyim, the hebrew word translated "God", denotes a plurality.

Well, some Christians who don't know Hebrew think it does. In fact, this is not true.

[SoothingDave]

You remember the old Flip Wilson show and when he would say the Devil made me do it? The Devil didn't make us do anything, our old nature wanted to, so we give in and walk in the flesh instead of turning to Jesus and his power to help us walk in the Spirit. This has been a major cop out sense the beginning of the church!

Let me say first that I think we all agree that one thing this age has given us is the lack of responsibility, the wanting to blame others. My kids burned the house down? Sue the makers of the lighter. My son got shot? Sue the gunmakers. I didn't mean to kill those nice folks, I was a victim of too much blood sugar making me excitable.

Nobody is arguing for this type of mentality on here. I hope.

Now let us examine the two main appearances of Satan in the Bible. In the Garden, he tells Eve what she wants to hear, puts ideas in her head, assures her that all will be OK.

When Satan encounters Jesus in the desert it is the same.

The message here is that we do have a free will. We are responsible for our actions. (Or else Adam and Eve wouldn't have been banished.) Satan serves not to compel us to bad actions, but as the temptor.

He holds out the possibilty of us doing wrong. Dresses it up in fancy language, poo poos the consequences. He tempts. We still make the decisions.

SD

[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

Accountability to worship on a regular basis is enough formality. How you do it when it's time can be a Spirit led issue whether spontaneous or not. I don't see the need to have every song planned out.
The Spirit can move just as much, if not more, if everyones heart gets made glad through what they are led to want to sing.

I have to disagree, "formal" planned songs and their drwn out, perfect endings are for show and the manipulation of the emotion.

[SoothingDave]

One thing you amaze me with: You are willing to say that God doesn't love if there is not an authoritative church and that Jesus is a "bastard" if the Spirit wasn't married to Mary.

I said no such thing. As for Mary, and as I explained in a later post, the argument that Jesus is a bastard of sorts was a jeering argument pagans made. The Catholic response is a way to shut them up. You have the luxury now of pretending their are no pagans jeering, but my Church was there.

As for me saying "God doesn't love if there is not an authoritative church" I have no idea what you are talking about. I am the first to say that God works through and with my other Christian friends here. Insisting that Scripture shows that He intended for there to be a recognizable Church is not to belittle my friends, or to limit God.

What ever are you referring to that I said?

SD

[SoothingDave]

The Spirit can move just as much, if not more, if everyones heart gets made glad through what they are led to want to sing.

Well, gee, aren't even having songs at all where everyone knows the words, and the organist knows the music beforehand just as much planned? I think the only true worship is when everyone just talks out loud in unknown, unplanned syllables.

SD

[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

I believe the reason the power was taken away at their death is because if a certain Church or group of people or a person could still perform all the miracles of the apostles today, you would know exactly where Christ Church was, and I don't think Christ wants any one Church to be looked on as the only true Church.

We need to find another word for the meeting of bodies in a building on Sunday. Church is the word for me, a saved soul, and alll here who are saved. There is only one true of those.
Denominations are not perfect, none of them, nor do any know all truth to be able to claim their DENOMINATION the true church.

All saved are the true church and we are all seeking the "Truth" in the scriptures.
Also, denying all miracles is silly. They clearly happen. Gifts that were meant for the end times is another topic. And I cannot be sure they have fully gone.
But miracles? God will use them whenever and wherever He chooses and I don't believe they will ever cease!