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To: annalex
Now, let us recall what the argument is about.

Yes lets. Piekoff says go steal the oil. I say it's stealing you say its libertarian.

And, without government there is no real property ownership. You do not find that in nature. Thus "property rights" which aren't attached to personal belongings do not exist outside of governed borders.

I suppose we agree on the matter of foreign and domestic property owners. I say that you're correct in one sense but it's about who does and who doesn't have the property rights regardless of their status.

Perhaps this is more of a value disagreement. You seem to think that all resources in the ground are for the taking by whomever gets their first.

I don't agree with that stance and I say that you are talking less about libertarian principle and more about a certain mindset which says 'if it's there we can go get it and use it to "create wealth."' And you are trying to fit that within a political philosophy where it just doesn't really belong.

I don't agree with that mindset. I do believe that a sovereign nation may refuse to allow people to willy nilly make claims on the resources within their borders and that there is nothing illibertarian about that in the slightest.

91 posted on 10/17/2001 8:29:20 PM PDT by Demidog
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To: Demidog
Piekoff says go steal the oil.

He doesn't. It appears that I wasted my time explaining that oil, or anything else, is not property unless an individual owns it. You had plenty of material on this thread to grasp this notion; if you haven't, it is pointless to re-explain it to you.

I am familiar with the position that natural resources can be claimed by a nation as a whole and that as you say "without government there is no real property ownership". The view that a nation or the government apart from the individuals is a source of property is precisely antithetical to libertarianism. You can argue for the position of course -- you won't be alone doing that, -- but please, don't mislabel it as libertarian.

In historical reality the oil companies were invited by governments to explore oil and were given concessions to that end. So the oil companies typically acted properly even within the imperfect legal framework of the governments. Then at some point the governments demanded that the oil industry be nationalized, -- that is, stolen from the oil companies. Our government, as Peikoff suggests, would be justified in reclaiming that property.

92 posted on 10/18/2001 5:24:41 AM PDT by annalex
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