Sir John Keegan is wrong: radical Islam could win

Asia Times ^ | October 12, 2001 | Spengler

[Kermit]

The US did not bug out of Vietnam because of the horror. We left, because there was no plan for victory, just endless war. The attack on the WTC hasn't sent people into episodes of the vapors, even the people in the building at the time of the attack. Many remarked about the calmness, the steady response of people without panic without pushing and shoving of the 25,000 people from 80 countries, who climb down those dozens of storeys. And the US and Britain produced more horror than Hitler ever dreamt about. Ever hear about Dresden or Hamburg? This author is a complete doofus.

[Restorer]

Right. It was the purposelessnes of the killing in Vietnam, not the fact of the killing, that was most repugnant.

Many remarked about the calmness, the steady response of people without panic without pushing and shoving of the 25,000 people from 80 countries, who climb down those dozens of storeys.

How many would have been this calm had they thought the towers were about to fall? Not too many, I think. I seriously doubt I could have remained calm, and I think I'm a pretty steady guy.

[Inyokern]

Keep in mind that these people have not been able to destroy Israel, as state infinitely smaller than the United States.

They pose a threat certainly, but I see no reason to panic. They have no way to attack us other than sneaking across our borders. Tightening up our border controls would remove most of their threat.

[TheHound]

Someone must tell them what the "master" wants. Their god? Who is their god. Is it the god of the qur'an that tells them to kill all infidels or is it the god of islam that tells them not to. Or is it the commanders who tell them to die for allah. I say it is the commanders. When the commanders are dead, who is to tell them? you?

[HarryKnutszacke]

Americans do not succumb to horror. We only pay lip service to doing so. No extremist minority has ever held a majority in subjugation here, as is the case in Afghanistan, because of our own will to revolt. That is our genetic legacy: this country has selected for a population that would not put up with the status quo in it's native lands. We will do what is necessary to survive, though we may couch it in pretty sentiments, just as our food droppings to Afghanistan were more for public consumption than for human consumption. Pure evil is its own undoing because, at its core, lies insanity. Thus Hitler's megalomania, and Bin Laden's miscalculation of his enemy. Saddam Hussein is far more threaghtening because he is not insane. He administers his ruthlessness with great calculation, and he is the cornerstone that must be crushed.

[Revolting cat!]

give me a hard headed, self-effacing, practical analyst, a minimalist who knows the uses of Occam's razor.

I give you John Keegan, sir. This particular essay, on the other hand, I found unpersuasive and muddled (if somewhat useful as the current discussion demonstrates,) but I couldn't quite pinpoint its flaws as well as you did. Oh, the horror, the horror of bad writing and on the day of Nobel Prize in Literature!

[backtobasics]

Those believers are not afraid of death. We are.

Dont include me in that "we". Im a believer too.

[MCH]

Islam is increasing in population. The pro-abortion West is decreasing in population. To win, we have to change.

Not so. If it's merely a question of population projections, we can very quickly reduce the foreign Muslim population and any future potential it might have.

If the Muslim terrorist scum ever succeed in taking out an entire American city, I believe the quick and final solution will be the only one left. It will be kill or be killed. Instant nuclear annihilation of the entire foreign Muslim population - all breeding grounds for current & future terrorists - will ensure eventual victory.

As time goes on I become more and more convinced that Islam really IS the enemy. If America begins to take HUGE losses in terms of cities and/or states, then this point of view will become extremely strong and widespread. The public cries to end this war quickly through nuclear means will be deafening.

Although we are told by our own leaders that Islamic nations & leaders worldwide "condemn" the huge militant wing of their religion, why is it that we almost never hear it from the horse's mouth? Why is it that extremist Islam is so incredibly widespread and dominant within their own cultures?

The few times I have seen a "sympathetic" Islamic cleric speak on the issue, the supposed condemnation is obviously half-hearted and insincere. I get the definite impression that mainstream "non-militant" Muslims show one face in public, but privately wink at and cheer on their Islamic terrorist army because it is spreading their religion by the sword, in true historical fashion.

[MCH]

...even a nuclear bombardment of one rogue state might not diminish its capacities. The West would be left with the horrific fact of mass destruction of civilians combined with continued insecurity.

This article is nonsense. If the West is ever truly pushed to the brink of potentially being destroyed, then it WILL resort to nukes. In this unlikely eventuality, it will NOT be stupid enough to limit the response to one rogue state. If pushed to the point of survival, the will to survive will prevail and the only means for quick & certain victory WILL be utilized.

If this point is ever reached, it will be extremely evident who the real enemy is. ALL foreign Islamic states will be nuked out of existence, thus ensuring victory. If there ARE no Afghans, Pakistanis, Saudis, Egyptians, Iraqis, Iranians, Algerians, Palestinians, Indonesians, etc. to join the extremist Islamic ranks, they cannot continue. From what I've heard, there aren't too many North & South Americans, Brits, Germans, Aussies, Russians, Japanese, etc. training in Al-Quada camps. If these are among the only countries left on earth, where will the enemy come from?

Point, set, match. Stupid article. We can only pray that the West is never faced with "staring into the abyss", such that the final solution becomes the only one.

[Nick Danger]

the chief beneficiaries of the 'Taliban' style of Islam... the total empowerment of the 'Male' in Society, at the exclusion of Women,

I think you are getting close, but I don't think it's that simple. I see a fear of women in a lot of their behavior. I also suspect that there is a heavy component of 'stooping to conquer' going on, in a dimension that is not obvious to Westerners. The places where these people live are a lot tougher to survive in than our air-conditioned offices with indoor plumbing would lead us to expect. There is a whole bunch of back-breaking work going on every day, just to keep food on the table. The women are 'forced' to stay in their homes while this work goes on? Are you sure you know who is 'empowered' in this scheme?

[Deep_6]

re:
"..Or is it the commanders who tell them to die for allah. I say it is the
commanders. When the commanders are dead, who is to tell them? you?....."

Throughout history, there has always been a "commander" to tell them
who to attack. Not much has changed, except they have moved their
quest from their Middle East soil, to ours. Rid Usama and there is
Hezbolah, Hamas, and whatever follows. I seriously doubt we'll see
an end to the problem that quickly.

This isn't a simple matter of bombing the daylights out of another nation,
our enemy is among us. They lived among us for five years or more,
planning; getting ready; knowing that their ultimate end was death
for them, for their cause.

There is nothing more powerful than an army with a religious conviction
that demands they die for their cause. Killing them, serves their purpose;
they answer not to a single "commander", but to their religion.

 

[Deep_6]

re:
".....Those believers are not afraid of death. We are...."

"....Dont include me in that "we". Im a believer too......"

We are all "believers" of one sort or another, but are we truly
willing to die for our belief?

Would you be willing to strap a bomb to your body and kill
innocent bystanders, along with yourself, in the name of your belief?

Would you choose to hijack an aircraft full of innocent victims
and take them to their death along with yourself, with the
assumption that it's exactly what your belief dictates?

Would you walk in front of enemy fire, for no other reason than
to prove that your own life means nothing to you; that your
religious belief dictates your action? That your death is the honor.

We value life; our own life; life of those around us and we attribute
our life to our beliefs; we give our life for our beliefs.

They value death.

[Deep_6]

re:
"...Point, set, match....."

Rather odd game. You left out an important part of the game,
however: There is no rule book.

The rules? Where are the rules to this game?

Unlike checkers, chess, tennis, etc., our opponent's play among us,
not on the other side of the net, or on different colored squares.

They are playing on our board with our game pieces, and it
will be near impossible to tell who is on what side. Do we
move a piece, jump over, or remove a piece to win?

They took flight lessons. They looked like us, acted like us and
lived like us; among us. They were us.

They were here for over five years, planning for the day they will die.

Rather odd game.

re:
"...If the West is ever truly pushed to the brink of potentially being 
destroyed, then it WILL resort to nukes....."

 Against whom? Idaho?

 

[Harrison Bergeron]

"The women are 'forced' to stay in their homes while this work goes on? Are you sure you know who is 'empowered' in this scheme? "

Good observation. Whenever we see an "on the scene" report from Afghanistan, there's this perpetual backdrop of Afghani men carrying stuff. Often it's a bundle of kindling that probably took a half a day or more to gather, given that the press reports that Afghanistan has been about 70% deforested for firewood in the last 25 years. These guys look none to healthy either. The young ones are likely off exercising their "privilege" of dying for the cause of their Taliban oppressors.

[aculeus]

Thanks for the commentary. So much for the canard that FR is for dummies.

[Polybius]

When pushed far enough, Americans can kill into the 5 or 6-figures in a single day.

I stand by my statement ... and look at the article. Vietnam. Everything else you mentioned was pre-television era.

Pearl Harbor was also pre-television.

However, on 11 September, 2001 most of America and I were able to watch, as a result of television, almost 6,000 other Americans die on live TV. One moment we were speculating on what caused that little puff of smoke that blew out of the building and the next moment were are watching the WTC Towers collapse on live TV. Three thousand dead Americans, just like that, in seconds. Fifteen minutes later, another 3,000 dead Americans, just like that, in seconds.

If the forces behind these attacks are not totally destroyed, the future dead will not be "the South Vietnamese", "the Cambodians", "the Koreans", "the European Jews", "the French" or "the British" as they were in Vietnam, Korea and the European Theatre of WW II. The future dead, in the minds of most Americans, will be "maybe my wife or my son or my daughter or my parents or my aunts and uncles or my cousins or my friends or my neighbors."

I stand by my statement. Pushed far enough, America will kill as many as need to be killed to stop the attacks on America and the American viewing public will be watching the details on TV and giving each other "high fives".

[dennisw]

btttttttttttttttttttt

[Jefferson Adams]

If the Muslim terrorist scum ever succeed in taking out an entire American city, I believe the quick and final solution will be the only one left. It will be kill or be killed. Instant nuclear annihilation of the entire foreign Muslim population - all breeding grounds for current & future terrorists - will ensure eventual victory.

I hope that "our" government has the will and the resolve to do it, should it come to that. And it may.

I don't believe that Islam, etc., can "defeat" us, in the traditional sense. I do, however, belive that they could disrupt us to the point where the distinctions between defeat and chaos become very blurred. *IF* it comes to that, it may be that only a nuclear option on a large scale will be able to stop it. At that point, it truly DOES become a matter of their survival or our survival, and I hope that our "leadership" has the balls to make the decision that America as a country needs to survive.

I hope it never comes to that.

[Rocko]

Reference bump.