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To: Joshua
I don't see Rome our Catholic in there

No, you don't. You don't see "Baptist" either. Or even "Christian." In fact, Christ's Church isn't named in Scripture.

Nevertheless, there are two scriptural passages that you need to reconcile. The first is that Christ establishes His Church. I don't think you can argue with that, although we might disagree on what that Church is.

The second scriptural passage that must be reconciled is the following:

"Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican."

We see from this second passage that Christ cannot be speaking of an invisible Church or a Church that cannot be readily identified. Why? Because Jesus doesn't modify the noun, "church." He assumes that his followers know the church of which he is speaking. Which of course must be His Church.

Now, this church must be readily identifiable. How could Jesus recommend that two people appeal their case to an invisible church?

**************

There are other signs of Church hierarchy and visibility in Scripture. In the Acts of the Apostles, Peter determines that Judas' apostolic office should be filled:

(Acts 1:19-21) "For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take."

(Psalm 109:5-8) "And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love. Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand. When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin. Let his days be few; and let another take his office."

Note that succession is part of the definition of the word "office." So from these verses we see that the Peter establishes apostolic succession (bishops).

(Note also that Peter is exercising his infallible interpretation of scripture here. No one objects to Peter's unilateral exercise of authority.)

259 posted on 10/17/2001 4:38:33 AM PDT by Aquinasfan
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To: Aquinasfan
(Note also that Peter is exercising his infallible interpretation of scripture here. No one objects to Peter's unilateral exercise of authority.)

Except God!

Note that the Apostles cast lots to see who would be "chosen". Note also that this is before Pentecost. Note also that it is Jesus who a few chapters later Regenerates Saul to be his Apostle.

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle and separated unto the Gospel of God,

1 Corinthians 1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2 Corinthians 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in all Achaia:

Galatians 1 Paul, an apostle (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead),

Ephesians 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Colossians 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,

1 Timothy 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Savior, and Lord Jesus Christ, who is our hope,

2 Timothy 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

Titus 1 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is according to godliness,

And they cast their lots, and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles. Word search on the Apostle Matthias: 0. Seems like God had something different in mind than casting lots; namely Paul, an apostle (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father...).
273 posted on 10/17/2001 7:11:21 AM PDT by CCWoody
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To: Aquinasfan
"Now, this church must be readily identifiable. How could Jesus recommend that two people appeal their case to an invisible church? "

The church was identifiable. It is made up of believers. The point I made was that the Church is anywhere that a group of believers gather or exist. Paul wrote to the churches of Galatia, Phillipi, Ephesus, Thessalonanca, etc. Jesus wrote to the seven churches in Revelation. All of these churches had Elders in position as described in Timothy to solve the problems that came up.

These4 churches were all visible yet separate except for the fact that Jesus as the head. They did not have a figurehead in Rome as the head of the church.

"There are other signs of Church hierarchy and visibility in Scripture. In the Acts of the Apostles, Peter determines that Judas' apostolic office should be filled: "

Peter was told to wait until the Power of the Spirit came upon him. Peter stepped out in the flesh and appointed someone to replace Judas. The head of the Church, Jesus, corrected Peters mistake and gave us Paul. Peters first official act, as you see it, was a total failure. I wouldn't use this as a measure of Peters infallibility of interpretation.

"(Note also that Peter is exercising his infallible interpretation of scripture here. No one objects to Peter's unilateral exercise of authority.) "

If this is a proof of Peters "unilateral authority" please explain these verses.

" Acts 15:13-14 13 When they finished, James spoke up: "Brothers, listen to me. 14 Simon has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself. (NIV)

Acts 15:19 19 "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. (NIV) "

Why is it James who gives the final judgement if Peter is the head? Peter talked, James made the decision. This is the meaning of the word "Judgement" used in that verse.

" 2919 krino-

1) to separate, to put asunder, to pick out, to select, to choose

2) to approve, to esteem, to prefer

3) to be of an opinion, to deem, to think

4) to determine, to resolve, to decree

5) to judge

a) to pronounce an opinion concerning right and wrong to be judged, that is, summoned to trial that one's case may be examined and judgment passed upon it

b) to pronounce judgment, to subject to censure, used of those who act the part of judges or arbiters in matters of common life, or pass judgment on the deeds and words of others

6) to rule, to govern

to preside over with the power of giving judicial decisions, because it was the prerogative of kings and rulers to pass judgment

"

We see by this verse that it was James who had the authority. I will not argue that he was the head of the church. I will only argue that it wasn't Peter who was in this position as the Catholic Church claims. Scripture does not support it.

317 posted on 10/17/2001 5:31:54 PM PDT by Joshua
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