OUR LADY AND ISLAM: HEAVEN’S PEACE PLAN

http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/OLISLAM.HTM ^ | September - October 2001 | Fr Ladis J. Cizik, Blue Army National Executive Director

[RobbyS]

Maybe you are thinking of the deadend that Calvin went into because he went far beyond what Augustine proposed.

[RobbyS]

Don't give us all the credit. The Greeks also believe that these were heretical sects. The most persistent strain,however, as been gnosticism, which dates from the time of the Apostles, if not from before, and has tried to highjack the Gospel.

[Aquinasfan]

Perhaps CCWoody is thinking of the Orthodox Church

You're kidding, right?

[Aquinasfan]

You could pick-up a copy of Foxe's Book of Martyrs to get a record of their existence.

At least you have a sense of humor.

As far as a name, street address, or telephone number, may I suggest that you look in your local Yellow Pages, under the heading: "Churches, Baptist".

In Scripture, Jesus tells us to ultimately settle our disputes in the Church. Since the Baptist Church wasn't around two thousand years ago, Jesus could not have been speaking of the Baptist Church.

In fact, the only Churches that have been around since Pentacost are the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches.

[RobbyS]

I cannot recall making such a proposal. Where are you reading this? If you are saying that Jesus Christ is God, and if Jesus is "true God and true man," what does that mean? How can God, who does not change, "become " man, who does change?

[RnMomof7]

If you are saying that Jesus Christ is God, and if Jesus is "true God and true man," what does that mean? How can God, who does not change, "become " man, who does change?

Woody didnt say God doesnt change,God said it

Mal.3:6For I [am] the LORD, I change not;.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Luke 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Robby...Jesus is God..and God never changes they are one in substance and purpose..and are unchanging.

[RobbyS]

Woody doesn't see the difficulties in the doctrine of the Trinity. We can see that Scripture, or the facts given in Scripture, imply it, but others may read those Scriptures, and not see it. The Arians, after all, refused to accept the Nicene decision because they said that the Creed contained words that were not Scriptural.

[RnMomof7]

The doctrinal language of various churches is a problem Robby.I think Woody has as good an understanding of the Trinity as St.Partick *grin*....or you or I do...it is a Mystery.We just search for words to define God,His substance and person...and there are no words.

So very smart men get together to make some up..that is theology.

Protestants do not all use the same words and they sure dont use Catholic words..the only common base we have is scripture..

The problem with that is as Protestants we see all truth there..you draw on the writings we would not consider inspired ..so the fight begins.

I just popped into the never ending..Geeeeeeeeee 8 or 9 months and they are still discussing stone vs rock...

[RobbyS]

I agree about the mystery of it all , but what does you do when someone says, He was NOT God, or he was NOT man? Someone had to get up and answer heretics like Marcion when he concocted his own canon, and the only way to do this was to defute him by proposing a true canon. Someone had to do this to defeat a false theology built on that canon. Theology is built on controversy. Unfortunately it descends into rancor, and, sadly, even murder, and, when the state gets involved, worse than murder.

[CCWoody]

If you are saying that Jesus Christ is God, and if Jesus is "true God and true man," what does that mean? How can God, who does not change, "become " man, who does change?

A simple question so I can understand your position: Is Jesus Christ Almighty God?

[CCWoody]

and the only way to do this was to defute him by proposing a true canon.

Funny, I tend to rely on the sword of the Spirit.

[RobbyS]

Jesus Christ is true God and true man, begotten not made

[RobbyS]

Funny, I tend to rely on the sword of the Spirit.

Funny, that can means one of many things.

[RnMomof7]

I agree about the mystery of it all , but what does you do when someone says, He was NOT God, or he was NOT man?

Did Woody say Jesus was not God? Did he say Jesus was not man?

[Joshua]

"Matthew 18:16-18 "And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican." "

Are you saying that a church to be valid must have a specific name? Try "Believers"

This is the meaning of the word "Church" in the scripture you quoted in both Strongs and Thayers

" 1577 ekklesia (ek-klay-see'-ah); from a compound of 1537 and a derivative of 2564; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): KJV-- assembly, church.

1577 ekklesia-

a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly

a) an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating

b) the assembly of the Israelites

c) any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously

d) in a Christian sense:

1) an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting

2) a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, to observe their own religious rites, to hold their own religious meetings, and to manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake

3) those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body

4) the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth

5) the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven "

I don't see Rome our Catholic in there

[Joshua]

"There is so much good in our country and in this world, its important to not let the clouds of dispair cloud our vision. "

Christians are viewed as mindless dolts who need a fictional God to lean on.

homosexuals are given the same status, in some terms, as marriage.

40 million children aborted.

Sexully transmiited disease at an all time high.

Children born out of wedlock at an all time high.

Divorce rates near 50 percent.

Crime rates up

And the words God and Jesus not to be used in any function funded by the state(Taxpayers, many of whom are Christians) so we don't upset little Susie the Atheist.

What color are the clouds in your world?

[RobbyS]

I don't think he appreciates the fact that during those first centuries how many men looked at the Scriptures, or portions of Scripture and said such things. The effect was to spread confusion. If we look at Chistianity in the 7th Century, probably a minority followed "orthodoxy". Among the barbarians, the Arians still were dominant; Elsewhere we see the Monophysites and the Nestorians and other groups in great numbers. Then along came Islam, which initially was regarded as still another Christian heresy.

[The_Reader_David]

Of course I was kidding. I added that Athonite smiley:
:-)===

[Aquinasfan]

I don't see Rome our Catholic in there

No, you don't. You don't see "Baptist" either. Or even "Christian." In fact, Christ's Church isn't named in Scripture.

Nevertheless, there are two scriptural passages that you need to reconcile. The first is that Christ establishes His Church. I don't think you can argue with that, although we might disagree on what that Church is.

The second scriptural passage that must be reconciled is the following:

"Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican."

We see from this second passage that Christ cannot be speaking of an invisible Church or a Church that cannot be readily identified. Why? Because Jesus doesn't modify the noun, "church." He assumes that his followers know the church of which he is speaking. Which of course must be His Church.

Now, this church must be readily identifiable. How could Jesus recommend that two people appeal their case to an invisible church?

**************

There are other signs of Church hierarchy and visibility in Scripture. In the Acts of the Apostles, Peter determines that Judas' apostolic office should be filled:

(Acts 1:19-21) "For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take."

(Psalm 109:5-8) "And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love. Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand. When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin. Let his days be few; and let another take his office."

Note that succession is part of the definition of the word "office." So from these verses we see that the Peter establishes apostolic succession (bishops).

(Note also that Peter is exercising his infallible interpretation of scripture here. No one objects to Peter's unilateral exercise of authority.)

[Aquinasfan]

Of course I was kidding.

Whew. You had me worried there for a second. ;-)