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To: Zviadist
No, but it does put to lie the idea that American muddling and empire-building does not have consequences.

Sure they do. The consequences are, at least on average, that the regions where we have intervened are less miserable sh!t holes than they would have been otherwise.

Even a case of American having unequivocally supported an unequivocally depostic regime, that of the Shah of Iran, makes the point. The Shah never would have gotten involved in that horrible, senseless and destructive war with Iraq. If we had managed to keep the Shah or a similar monarch in power, therefore, a million or two (whatever the figure is) Iranians and Iraqis who today are dead would instead still be alive. Similarly if our efforts to kill Sadam Hussein had succeded a million more Iraqis (the children your friend bin Laden mentioned, dead because Sadam wouldn't negotiate for the easing of sanctions) might be alive today.

That perhaps there was motivation beyond "they hate us because we are so noble and good and have such good fast food restaurants" that most Americans seem to feel so smug and snug believing

Yes, we do, thank you. We are in fact (quite markedly, if again on average) a force for stability, freedom, prosperity and moderation in the world. I'm not just smug, I'm proud of that. I hope you have as much reason to be proud of your country's contributions to human civilization. Where are you writing from?

59 posted on 10/08/2001 3:31:04 PM PDT by Stultis
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To: Stultis
"Even a case of American having unequivocally supported an unequivocally depostic regime, that of the Shah of Iran, makes the point. The Shah never would have gotten involved in that horrible, senseless and destructive war with Iraq. If we had managed to keep the Shah or a similar monarch in power, therefore, a million or two (whatever the figure is) Iranians and Iraqis who today are dead would instead still be alive. Similarly if our efforts to kill Sadam Hussein had succeded a million more Iraqis (the children your friend bin Laden mentioned, dead because Sadam wouldn't negotiate for the easing of sanctions) might be alive today. "

You have got to be kidding. Iran didn't get into the war with Iraq. The war was started by Iraq with the support of the US. The Iranians then demanded "unconditional surrender" from Iraq. They got that idea from the US.

69 posted on 10/08/2001 3:43:05 PM PDT by Marduk
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To: Stultis

We are in fact (quite markedly, if again on average) a force for stability, freedom, prosperity and moderation in the world.

Don't get around much, do you?

73 posted on 10/08/2001 3:47:33 PM PDT by Zviadist
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