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I don't doubt the pilots ability to handle firearms tempermentally provided they are trained for it. But I don't think anyway here has really made the case that they are needed provided the cockpits are secure. And THAT is my point. If someone really wants to make the point that the cockpits can never really be made secure, and that guns in the cockpit is statistically reasonably likely as a matter of prediction to thwart foul play that would otherwise obtain after securing the cockpits, have at it. I will respectfully listen.

It is really coming through Torie. You are just afraid of guns.

If the terrorists can't get through to the cockpit, then what is the problem with the pilots being armed, particularly if, as even you admit, they have the appropriate temperment for handling firearms.

Simply put, if the guns are in the cockpit, and the terrorists can't get to the cockpit, then there is no problem with the pilots being armed. Conversely, if the terrorists can get to the cockpit, then the pilots should be armed because they will be the thin blue line in the sky which stands between us and another 9/11 atrocity. So no matter how you look at it is a no brainer as far as the pilots being armed.

But I don't think anyway here has really made the case that they are needed provided the cockpits are secure. And THAT is my point. If someone really wants to make the point that the cockpits can never really be made secure, and that guns in the cockpit is statistically reasonably likely as a matter of prediction to thwart foul play that would otherwise obtain after securing the cockpits, have at it. I will respectfully listen.

First of all, arming the pilot and copilot isn't going to do much good if it's easy for someone to break into the cockpit and surprise them. I think everyone here would agree to that. Arming the pilot and copilot is just a part--but an important one--of an overall cockpit security plan.

To be sure, it would be possible to design new aircraft such that there was no passage between the cockpit and cabin. This isn't quite as simple as it sounds, however, since it would require giving the cockpit a separate lavatory and galley, and space is a rather scarce commodity on an aircraft. Additionally, for flights which are long enough to require more than one flight crew, it would be necessary that the cabin area contain seating for all crew members. Finally, there's the problem that if either the pilot or copilot has a medical emergency, it would be impossible for anyone other than the other flight officer to provide assistance despite the fact that they're supposed to be flying the plane.

As a result, while a completely-secure cockpit might be possible, it does have some drawbacks. As a result, in most cases there's going to have to be a door between the cockpit and cabin. If the pilot and copilot are reasonably alert, however, this should not pose a particular problem provided that there's a camera/monitor allowing the flight officers to see what's going on outside and provided that the door, once locked from the inside, cannot be unlocked or forced open from the outside without giving the flight officers at least a few seconds' notice.

To be sure, the pilot's control of the aircraft can itself be used as a weapon against anyone invading the cockpit (a bit hard to ram the door when you're practically bouncing off the ceiling). On the other hand, such severe maneuvers may be severely injurious to the passengers and flight attendants (especially if things like the beverage carts aren't secured) and yet not be completely effective against the hijackers (who, being aware of the possibility, may have been trained to deal with it). A firearm, fired at the specific individual(s) raiding the cockpit, may be more effective than aerobatic maneuvers against the hijackers while posing less risk to the other people in the plane.

One airline has already installed a crossbar inside the cockpit door, but no matter what they do some evil genius will figure out a way around it.

All I can tell you is that my airline Captain friend says he wants to have a last line of defense.

And for Spald, Aren't most commercial pilots former officers in the military?

Nope, but my Captain friend is a Texan, and has a ranch and has a concealed carry permit, and has practiced on coyotes and turtles. And is not a hotdog, a very cool, reasoned professional who will happily undergo special training, just like he did to be able to fly his 767 jet fuel bomb.

"I don't doubt the pilots ability to handle firearms tempermentally provided they are trained for it. But I don't think anyway here has really made the case that they are needed provided the cockpits are secure. And THAT is my point. If someone really wants to make the point that the cockpits can never really be made secure, and that guns in the cockpit is statistically reasonably likely as a matter of prediction to thwart foul play that would otherwise obtain after securing the cockpits, have at it. I will respectfully listen."

This turkey is acting as if it ain't gonna happen unless he's convinced it's a good idea!

Don't let him get you worked up, folks. In this "debate", his opinion ain't worth a flyspeck in a pepper factory. The pilots are gonna get what they want -- and if by some grand stroke of stupidity they don't, then the passengers will go on strike.

In fact, it would appear that the passengers have already gone on strike.

You can't secure the cockpit completely -- the crew can be tricked or blackmailed into coming out of the cockpit.

Even maximum security prisons cannot be made physically secure. Escapes are evidence of that. If that level of security is not enough to keep inmates in, then it is not enough to keep hijackers out of the cockpit. Pilots need guns. Prove you have an unarmed method of making the cockpit totally secure so that guns would never under any circumstance be needed and I'll agree that your type should be allowed to restrict the pilots rights to use pistols as a defence.

In fact, what an absolutely stupid position for you to take. You would deny pilots and their passengers the most effective means of protecting their lives as a last line of defense, because it makes you theoretically uncomfortable. If you were a pilot, and hijackers had just breached your "reinforced" and "locked" bulkhead door, would you want a gun, or are you afraid the temptation to kill your flight crew would be too much to handle?