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To: SoothingDave
"Yes, Big Mack, that is a good answer. There is exactly one place where Jesus told anybody to write anything down and it is in Revelation.

So we can't say that Jesus never told anybody to write anything, but we can say that He never gave the Apostles instructions for writing the Gospels and the Epistles.


Yes, and there is exactly one place where one with a vivid imagination can claim that Jesus made Peter the Rock. Also, one with a vivid imagination can say "If there were any Aramic versions available it would vindicate this claim." Oh well!
6 posted on 10/03/2001 10:18:59 AM PDT by OLD REGGIE
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To: OLD REGGIE
Yes, and there is exactly one place where one with a vivid imagination can claim that Jesus made Peter the Rock. Also, one with a vivid imagination can say "If there were any Aramic versions available it would vindicate this claim." Oh well!

I love you man! :)

BigMack

8 posted on 10/03/2001 10:24:37 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: OLD REGGIE, SoothingDave, Payno
Ok, I'm tired of this argument about peter's authority being based on Matthew 16. So lets look at Matthew 16, Shall we?

[13] When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? [14] And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist; some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. [15] He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? [16] And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. [17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. [18] And I say also unto thee that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Now the Greek lessen. The word used to refer to Peter all along has been Petros, That does not change for this verse, nor does it change after. This can be seen in verse 22 in which he is again referred to as Petros - not Petra which is the word translated to the english as Rock. In all other cases in the Bible where spiritual matters are concerned - all of them, The Rock means Jesus - the Spiritual Rock. Peter's name does not change here. The same Greek word used to describe peter before now is still applied.

Next, what is it they are talking about, this is not a carnal truth being discussed. They had just finished discussing the Worthless doctrine of the Sadducees and Pharisees whom Jesus called an adulterous and wicked generation because they sought a sign rather than God. And because they could read the weather and predict it but could not read the signs of the times. They were spiritually blind - their focus was not on God; but, on the carnal things. And we are back to a spiritual conversation again - the foundation of the Church.

Jesus tells Peter that he is Peter, And Jesus will found his church on the Rock - the Petra. Now, we already know who the Rock is in spiritual terms - Jesus our Lord. Stop for a minute and let's rewind.

'Who do you say I am?'
'You are the Christ.'
'Right, and I say to you that you are Peter',
PUASE: Acknowledgement You know who I am and I know who you are.
'and upon this Petra I will build [of me] my church.'

Ok now look at the conversation it becomes even more obvious. Jesus knows that Petros is the man's name and he acknowledges it. He purposedly chooses to say that on the Petra will he build his church - not on the Petros. The two words mean different things by definition. That the difference is intended can be further shown in the actual Greek. the greek uses multiple gender and tense of particular words "The" is one of them. The words Petros and petra are different gender: Petros being masculine (thus the male Peter), and Petra being feminen. Don't get caught up on this too quickly, there is a reason for it. Let's first look at the word groupings of the translation:

verse 18 again word groupings in order of translation from the greek: [*And I also][to thee][say][(0)-][thou][art][Peter][and][on][this] [(1)-][rock][I will build][of me][the][church][and][(the)gates] [of hades][*will not prevail against][it]. Things to note are the *combined meaning of paired words, (0) - dropped word (that/though) understood. (1) [dropped understood] fem. form of the word "the"!

Anyone understanding the language understands that in translation, inflection, tense and gender are important, Most important here is the Tense of the word the applied to Petra, a fem. word by translation. The fem. form means a Mass of Rock (literally or figuratively) Size counts in a foundation. The fem. modifier to the word the means that the gender of the word was intended. Petros, a Masculine form, which by translation means a Piece of Rock. By definition, if we are talking about comparison, there is a smaller form that refers to pebbles, then there is Petros (medium sized), then their is Petra (massive).

The fem. form Petra is not intended to reference a name, but a distinction in state of being. One can understand this if one understands Greek. Being large and being small is a difference and a noteable one in a language based in states of being. But this is a spiritual reference to Christ. And in that context, there is none bigger or more solid/sure.

So, we can now look back again and look at the exchange:

'Who do you say I am?'
'You are the Christ.'
'Right, and I say to you that you are Petros(the piece of rock/median sized rock)',
PUASE: Acknowledgement You know who I am and I know who you are.
'and upon this Petra(massive rock)[fem. differentiation from the masculine form] I will build [of me] my church.'

So, we have two powerful differentiations made in the words chosen. We have the differentiation between fem and masculine. And we have a major size difference ingendered in the words. And we have modification of the grammer showing intended purposeful selection of differentiated words. I might add for those who want to quote non-existant Aramaic references that there is an equivalant in Aramaic for A Mass of rock. And you well know it. Cephas is not the only word in Aramaic that means rock of any form. Petra is used to reference huge masses of Rock. Petros is used to reference median masses. In other words if Petros would be used to denote a cliff, then Petra would comparatively be a Mountain.

Anyone wish to add to this?

120 posted on 10/03/2001 5:32:48 PM PDT by Havoc
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To: OLD REGGIE
"You are Cephas, and on this Cephas I will....." C'mon man! You can debate whether Peter really was the Pope, but let's at least get past this "Peter is a pebble, not the rock" bit. >>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, and there is exactly one place where one with a vivid imagination can claim that Jesus made Peter the Rock.
141 posted on 10/03/2001 9:14:34 PM PDT by Conservative til I die
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