Posted on 10/02/2001 2:30:40 PM PDT by malakhi
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The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles) -- Thread 153
Thank you for being reasonable. It's refreshing. Yes, we have discussed before the actualy rarity of people exercising their "private interpretation" rights. And we agreed that most people never give it a second thought. It is, however, the founding principle of Protestantism -- throw off the chains of the Church and decide for yourself!
And certainly I would be the first to point out that none of us live in a vacuum and that we are all products of our surroundings. I have no problem with recognizing that two people from two backgrounds can read the same thing in different ways. It is the more rabid supporters of the Protestant banner who equate their reading with a direct command from God.
I don't have a problem saying "this is how I interpret things" or "this is the traditional way my people have viewd this." I don't run around waiting to throw folks into the fire because they are "attacking" God and "blaspheming" His Word.
Will you affirm for me that the Catholic Church did not translate the Bible into Latin as a dead language, but raher as the common tongue of those who could read in the Western Empire?
SD
Where does the Bible say the early churches treated Peter in a papal fashion?
I cite the example of Peter settling the circumcision debate in Acts 15.
Where does the Bible say that one man is the head of all churches?
see my answer to the first question.
Where does Bible say God established a special priesthood for the churches that is separate from the priesthood of the believers? Where does the Bible describe the office of such priests in the early churches? Where does the Bible say that New Testament priests are ordained after the order of Melchizedek?
These questions can be answered together as they refer to the sacrament of Holy Orders. The Eucharist is the reason why priests are ordained so they can perpetuate the Eucharistic sacrifice in the Church.
“For every high priest chosen from among men is appointed to act on behalf of men in relation to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins.”
“He can deal gently with the ignorant and wayward, since he himself is beset with weakness.”
“Because of this he is bound to offer sacrifice for his own sins as well as for those of the people.” (Heb 5:1-3)
“being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek. “(Heb 5:10)
I can't post my whole response on one reply so I'll have to do several.
Where does the Bible say the apostles passed on their authority through a succession?
I will cite the example of Matthias being elected to replace Judas in Acts 1.
Where does the Bible give standards for apostolic succession? There are standards for pastors and deacons, but where are the standards for an ongoing apostleship?
Apostolic succession is based on the mission Christ gave the Apostles. "As the Father hath sent Me, I also send you: (John, 20:21). Since this is a divine mission it must always continue the same, and is transmitted with its Divine character until the end of time. We call this unbroken lawful succession Apostolicity. We have the example of Paul, in his Epistle to the Romans insisting upon the necessity of this Divinely established mission. "How shall they preach unless they be sent?" (10:15). Paul also instructs his disciples Timothy and Titus, of their obligation of preserving Apostolic doctrine, and of ordaining other disciples to continue the work entrusted to the Apostles. "Hold the form of sound words, which thou hast heard from me in faith and in the love which is in Christ Jesus" (2 Tim 1:13). "And the things which thou hast heard from me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men, who shall be fit to teach others also" (2 Tim 2:2)
Where does the Bible describe nuns in the early churches?
They are not referenced specifically in the bible however Paul speaks of widows, who were called to certain kinds of church work (1 Tim 5:9, and of virgins (1 Cor 7 ), whom he praises for their continence and their devotion to the things of the Lord.
Where in the Bible do we find anyone praying to Mary or to any other person other than God?
You are referring to intercessory prayer and our teaching of the communion of the saints. This has been discussed numerous times however, I will give a few scripture references where examples of this can be found Col 1:9; 2 Thes 1:11; 2 Thes 3:1; Jas 5:16)
Where does the Bible call Mary the Mother of God?
We base this teaching on the unity of God, the eternity of the Word and the Incarnation. So if Scripture reveals that Mary is the Mother of the Word-made-Flesh, and the Word-made-flesh is God, then Mary is the Mother of God (the Word), not from eternity but beginning in time and for eternity. To say only that Mary is the Mother of Jesus or only the Mother of Christ, is to deny the unity of Christ's Divine and Human Natures.
"blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, how is it that the Mother of the Lord comes to me" (Lk 1:42-43).
Where does the Bible say that Mary is the Queen of Heaven?
Mary’s Queenship is first based on her maternal relationship with Jesus. Since Jesus is certainly the Messianic King, it follows that Mary’s role is that of the Queen Mother of the Messianic King. We also see scriptural evidence of this in Revelation 12:1 describing a “woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars”.
Where in the Bible do we find the teaching that Mary is sinless?
This teaching is based on Luke 1:28 where Mary is described as full of grace. We believe that being in such state is entirely consistent with a status of sinlessness. We also believe that God can make a person sinless if He so desires. If he originally made Adam and Eve that way, why not the mother of God our Savior?
Where in the Bible do we find the baptism of an infant who is too young to believe in Christ?
Two points here. We know that baptism replaced circumcision as the method of entering into God’s covenant family (Col. 2:11-12). We also have the examples in the book of Acts of whole households and families being baptized.
Where does the Bible teach us that the church can identify dead people as saints and can then pray to them? Where does the Bible teach that a dead person can intercede for the living?
see my previous answer regarding communion the saints and intercessory prayer.
Where does the Bible teach about purgatory?
The explicit scriptural reference is 2 Mac. 12:42-46. Paul also tells us that at the judgment each man's work will be tried. This trial happens after death. And what happens if a man's work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15).
Where does the Bible teach that churches should use the bones of dead men in any type of religious manner?
This question refers to the Catholic practice of relics. We do have examples of this in the NT. A woman was cured of a hemorrhage by touching the hem of Christ's cloak (Matt. 9:20-22). The sick were healed when Peter's shadow passed over them (Acts 5:15-16). "And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them" (Acts 19:11-12).
Where in the Bible do we find even one example of a Catholic mass being conducted or even described? If Christ established the mass and if it is central to the Christian faith as Rome claims, why is there not one example of it in the book of Acts and the New Testament epistles?
The example of the Mass can be found at the Last Supper. It is also describe in the book of 1 Corinthians 11.
Where in the Bible do we find Christians taking the Lord's supper by partaking of the bread alone without the wine or grape juice?
Don’t understand this question. We have discussed numerous times we can receive under either species.
Where in the Bible does Paul or any of the early church leaders teach that there are seven sacraments? Where in the Bible do we find the churches practicing the sacrament of confirmation? Where in the Bible do we find the churches practicing any sort of extreme unction or last rites as a sacrament?
You are question all of our sacraments so It’s probably better to give you a link rather than use more thread space.
Sacraments
Where in the Bible do we find the prayer of the rosary?
It is based on Luke’s gospel account of Mary.
Where in the Bible do we find that New Testament churches are to conduct elaborate rituals and ceremonies after the fashion of Rome?
It depends on what you mean by elaborate ceremonies and rituals but I don’t find anything to answer your question . However I do understand you do not accept out traditions.
Where in the Bible do we find that the headquarters for the church is to be in Rome?
You don’t. It just happens to be the place that Peter and Paul were martyred.
Sorry for the brief answers but I was trying to conserve thread space and at the same time address your questions.
Sorry Al. This was the only way I was going to get my questions answered. Please forgive me.
You bring a detached message to the group which was quickly overshadowed by the continuing clamor. No, we are not saved by knowing the right history, it is all about belief and obedience to God and His Christ.
That being said, Jesus called himself "the Way, the Truth, and the Life" Perhaps if He wer only the Way and the Life we could avoid these discussions. But He is also the Truth, and we are obliged to defend the Truth when it is attacked.
SD
Note: I would add to Payno's ascertation that once a foundation is layed it cannot be layed again. The work of the Apostles was completed and we have a sufficient record of that which was established. That said, Writers of the 2nd century forward who are still trying to lay a foundation are out of their depth. The foundation was put down. One cannot go back and relay it because they don't like what's there or would like something to be added. This isn't Home improvement. God put down the foundation, He didn't provide jack hammers to *anyone* that they might tear out the foundation and start anew. Nor will he honor the work of anyone Concieted as Lucifer who thinks they can *improve* upon the system with their traditions and philosophies.
And I thought all along that Christ was the Rock, the foundation on which the Church would be built. Now it appears to be some type of "work of the Apostles."
Hmmm.
SD
The Lord Jesus publicly condemned the Pharisees because their traditions contradicted Scripture and led men away from the pure truth of God's Word
7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
The Pharisees claimed to be the divinely ordained caretakers and interpreters of God's Word, just as the Roman Catholic pope and bishops claim today.
OK. And didn't Jesus also tell the crowd to listen to what the Pharisees taught? Though they may be hypocrites they still taught from "Moses's Chair" and deserved respect for their teachings?
And another thing. We know Paul told his audience to hold fast to the traditions taught by mouth or written. Tradition is not always necessarily bad, nor is having appointed official interpreters. This is your thesis and it falls.
SD
. However, since Protestants adhere to Sola Scriptura, my questions should not be difficult.
You're questions might or might not be difficult without a common understanding of what Sola Scriptura really is.
Though the following is not my favorite definition of Sola Scriptura, I submit one fron an "approved" Catholic source for your review:
This mediator [Jesus Christ], first through the Prophets, then by his own lips, afterwards through the Apostles, revealed whatever he considered necessary. He also inspired Scripture, which is regarded as canonical and of supreme authority and to which we give credence concerning all those truths we ought to know and yet, of ourselves, are unable to learn.
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So scripture, according to St. Augustine, is the supreme authority and reveals all truths we should know. That sounds about as good as any Protestant definition of Sola Scriptura. This version bears the Imprimatur, Nihil Obstat, and Imprimi Potest of the Catholic Church and is found in City of God published in 1958 by Image Books, Doubleday, Copyright 1958 by Fathers of the Church, Inc., edited by Vernon J. Bourke, ISBN 0-385-02910-1, page 207.
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Is this good enough for you?
Sorry. Scripture is indeed authoritative, but only when properly understood. What settles an argument between two men on the meaning of a Scripture passage?
SD
No worries. Carry on ... I'm reading your answers and awaiting Mack's.
pegleg
2) Where did Jesus tell His apostles to write anything down? Here's one: Revelation 1: 9
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
50 Posted on 10/02/2001 19:51:19 PDT by Iowegian
Question answered and pretty solid I might add unlike some of the weak answers that you guys are giving period...... NEXT
BigMack
what do you mean by Body of Christ, and what do you mean by Catholic Church? And actually, what do you mean by 'subsist'?
Well, I was kinda hoping y'all would be able to tell me what it means to YOU.
Did you find a female apostle yet?
SD
So we can't say that Jesus never told anybody to write anything, but we can say that He never gave the Apostles instructions for writing the Gospels and the Epistles.
SD
For example: common sense that is being guided by the Holy Spirit tell me that Jesus did not mean for us to literally eat his body or drink his blood to get him in our hearts. When I eat a steak I do not have the spirit of a cow in me. Commom sense. Having Jesus IN our lives does not mean to eat him to get him IN us. Common sense. The holy spirt give us the common sense to see these things, we just need to listen and trust our common sense, which in reality is trusting the Holy Spirti.
Becky
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