TERRORISM, JUSTICE AND LOVING OUR ENEMIES/September 12, 2001

10/1/01 | Pastor John Piper/ Bethlehem Baptist Church

[CCWoody]

You're just trying to distract from the mounting embarassment and anxiety over the things you said about your "vision" when the plain meaning of Luke 12:35-37 is so clear.

You are not forced to be a part of it. And the meaning is plain: He will gird Himself and have them sit down to eat, and will come and serve them. Are you going to rely on your own opinion or run to commentaries. Where is thy sword, O mighty man?

[George W. Bush]

You are not forced to be a part of it. And the meaning is plain: He will gird Himself and have them sit down to eat, and will come and serve them. Are you going to rely on your own opinion or run to commentaries.

I thought you had been forcing it on us repeatedly. Exactly what else have you been on about?

Just as in the dispute over Hebrews 10, I read it for myself first. I always try to test my own understanding before looking to the established traditional authorities. Before I strongly disagree with people, I look to the scholars to try to determine if my own understanding is faulty. I have learned a lot by trusting the great scholars of the Reformation and the great Baptists, Woody. You should try it.

The meaning is clear. It is a parable teaching. To apply your literalism here makes nonsense of the following verses and other real prophecy in the scripture.

Since you mention the commentators, I'll go ahead though it is certainly obvious enough from a plain reading of the verses.:

Matthew Henry, brief:

Luke 12:22-40
Christ largely insisted upon this caution not to give way to disquieting, perplexing cares, Mt 6:25-34. The arguments here used are for our encouragement to cast our care upon God, which is the right way to get ease. As in our stature, so in our state, it is our wisdom to take it as it is. An eager, anxious pursuit of the things of this world, even necessary things, ill becomes the disciples of Christ. Fears must not prevail; when we frighten ourselves with thoughts of evil to come, and put ourselves upon needless cares how to avoid it. If we value the beauty of holiness, we shall not crave the luxuries of life. Let us then examine whether we belong to this little flock. Christ is our Master, and we are his servants; not only working servants, but waiting servants. We must be as men that wait for their lord, that sit up while he stays out late, to be ready to receive him. In this Christ alluded to his own ascension to heaven, his coming to call his people to him by death, and his return to judge the world. We are uncertain as to the time of his coming to us, we should therefore be always ready. If men thus take care of their houses, let us be thus wise for our souls. Be ye therefore ready also; as ready as the good man of the house would be, if he knew at what hour the thief would come.

Darby:

But, having established this general basis, He turns to His disciples and teaches them the great practical principles that were to guide their walk. They were not to think of the morrow, but to trust in God. Moreover they had no power over it Let them seek the kingdom of God, and all that they needed should be added. This was their position in the world that rejected Him. But besides the Father's heart was interested in them: they were to fear nothing. It was the Father's good pleasure to give them the kingdom. Strangers and pilgrims here, their treasure was to be in heaven; and thus their heart would be there also. [See Footnote #33] Besides this, they were to wait for the Lord. Three things were to influence their souls: the Father would give them the kingdom, their heart's treasure in heaven, and the expectation of the Lord's return. Until the Lord should come, they were required to watch-to have their lamps burning; their whole position should manifest the effect of the continual expectation of the Lord-should express this expectation. They were to be as men who waited for Him with their loins girded; and in that case, when all should be according to the Lord's own heart, re-established by His power, and they brought into His Father's house, He would make them sit down, and, in His turn, gird Himself to serve them.

It is of all importance to fix the attention of the reader on the point, that what the Lord looks for here is not the holding, however clearly, the Lord's coming at the end of the age, but that the Christian should be waiting for Him, in a full profession of Christ, and his heart in spiritual order. Such, the Lord will make to sit down as guests, but such for ever, in His Father's house where He has brought them, and will Himself in love minister the blessing. This love will make the blessings ten thousand fold more precious, all received from His hand. Love likes to serve, selfishness to be served. But He did not come to be ministered to. This love He will never give up.

Nothing can be more exquisite than the grace expressed in these verses, 35 and 37. [See Footnote #34] On the inquiry of Peter, desirous of knowing to whom Jesus addressed these instructions, the Lord refers him to the responsibility of those to whom He committed duties during His absence. Thus we have the two things that characterise the disciples after the rejection of Christ-the expectation of His return, and service. The expectation, the vigilance that watches with girded loins to receive Him, finds its reward in rest, and in the feast (happiness ministered by Him) at which Jesus girds Himself to serve them; faithfulness in service, by having rule over all that belongs to the Lord of glory. We have seen, besides these special relationships between the walk of the disciples and their position in the world to come, the general truth of the renunciation of the world in which the Saviour had been rejected, and the possession of the kingdom by the gift of the Father.

In that which He says afterwards of the service of those who bear His name during His absence, the Lord also points out those who will be in this position, but unfaithful; thus characterising those who, while publicly exercising ministry in the church, should have their portion with the unbelievers. The secret of the evil that characterises their unbelief would be found in this, that their hearts would put off the return of Jesus, instead of desiring it and hastening it by their aspirations, and serving with humility in the desire of being found faithful. They will say, He is not coming immediately; and, in consequence, they will do their own will, accommodate themselves to the spirit of the world, and assume authority over their fellow-servants. What a picture of that which has taken place! But their Master (for He was so, although they had not truly served Him) would come at a moment whenthey did not expect Him, as a thief in the night; and, although professing to be His servants, they should have their portion with unbelievers. Nevertheless there would be a difference between the two; for the servant who knew his own Master's will and did not make ready for Him, as the fruit of his expectations, and did not perform his Master's will, should be severely punished; whilst he who had not the knowledge of His will should be punished less severely. I have added "own" to the word "Master," according to the original, which signifies a recognised relationship with the Lord, and its consequent obligation. The other was ignorant of the explicit will of the Lord, but he committed the evil which in any case he ought not to have done. It is the history of true and false servants of Christ, of the professing church, and of the world in general. But there cannot be a more solemn testimony as to what brought unfaithfulness into the church, and led to its ruin and approaching judgment, namely, the giving up the present expectation of the Lord's coming.

If it shall be required of persons according to their advantages, who will be so guilty as those that call themselves the ministers of the Lord, if they do not serve Him as in expectation of His return?

Gill:

Luke 12:36

And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their Lord…
Who either was at a wedding, or was the bridegroom himself; so be ye in a readiness, waiting for the coming of Christ, the bridegroom of the church:

when he will return from the wedding,
The Syriac version renders it, "from the house of feasting"; from any entertainment, or from the marriage feast, or rather the marriage itself, to the bride chamber: so when Christ has, by the preaching of the Gospel, and the power of his grace, espoused all his elect, he will descend from heaven, and take them to himself; they shall then be called to the marriage supper of the Lamb, and enter with him into the nuptial chamber, and be for ever with him:

that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open to him immediately;
and let him in without any delay, as soon as ever he comes to the door; and at the first knock, open it to him at once, having light, and being in a posture of readiness, and in constant expectation of him: so such who have believed in Christ, and have been faithful to his cause and interest, and have held fast the profession of their faith without wavering, when Christ shall either come and knock at their doors by death, or shall come to judgment, and sound the alarm of it, they shall be ready to obey the summons with the greatest cheerfulness, and meet him with the utmost pleasure.


Luke 12:37

Blessed are those servants whom the Lord…
The Syriac, Arabic, and Ethiopic versions read, "their Lord", the master of them, or the Lord Jesus Christ:

when he cometh shall find watching:
for him, and not asleep. The Ethiopic version reads, "so doing, and watching"; girding up their loins, trimming their lamps, and waiting for their Lord's coming: such servants are happy, they will appear to be in the favour of their master, who will take notice of them and show some marks of respect to them; as Christ will to all his good and faithful servants, whenever he comes, whether at death, or at judgment; and who will be happy then, being found so doing, and found in him:

verily I say unto you that he shall gird himself;
not that Christ shall really do this, or appear in the form of a servant; but that he shall readily, cheerfully, and at once introduce his servants into his joy, and make them partakers of all the glories of the other world:

and make them to sit down to meat;
at his table in his kingdom; see (Matthew 8:11) (Luke 22:30)

and will come forth and serve them;
with food, yea, will feed them himself, and lead them to fountains of living water, (Revelation 7:17) The Arabic version renders it, "he shall stand to minister unto them": the phrase is expressive of the posture of a servant; who, as Dr. Lightfoot observes, is (Klwh) , "walking", and who goes round about the table, whilst others sit: some think there is allusion in the words to a custom used at some feasts, particularly at the feasts in honour of Saturn, in which servants changed clothes with their masters, and sat at their tables, and their masters served them.

Geneva Study Bible:

12:35 ¹¹ Let your loins be girded about, and [your] lights burning;

(11) The life of the faithful servants of God in this world is certainly a diligent journey, having the light of the word going before the journey.

12:40 ¹² Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

(12) None need to watch more than they that have some degree of honour in the household of God.

One could go on at some length. Strangely enough, the traditional scholars have never assigned the literal meaning to these verses that you have as a result of your "vision".

One notices two strains here among Reformed and Baptist thinking. Henry and Gill emphasize this parable as applying to all believers. Darby and the Geneva notes emphasize the special responsibility of those with responsibility for the church such as pastors or elders.

Hopefully, that will demonstrate the unorthodox position you have taken because of your "vision". This is why charismatics always end up in such quandary with the whole Word.

[ReformedBeckite]

I was just checking in to see if you were unrighteously hounding GWB, and of course you are. I've noticed you keep mentioning in a negative tone that useing commentaries are a negative thing or something like that.

Well I wonder, do you think the same thing for creeds or confessions.

[CCWoody]

How did I ever get along my whole life without commentaries, confessions, and creeds?

I'd love to discuss this with some of these people, but alas, they are not here.

RB, you might find this interesting, then again, maybe not: I managed to stumble across much of Calvin's teaching and even parts of the short Westminster Confession (sp) without ever reading a word. The problem here is that GWB is proud of the fact that he is not the sword wielding type (his words).

This has put him strangely at odds with 2 ordained ministers and others. He mocks things with no clue what he is talking about and plain slanders.

BTW, Bush, I bet you didn't notice a thing or two I did about some of those commentaries.....

It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man commentaries.

... your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

[RnMomof7]

How did I ever get along my whole life without commentaries, confessions, and creeds?

GEEEEEEEE this has turned into a war guys..and the question is simply can and does God reveal Himself in His word,does he illuminate that word,through the power of the Holy Spirit to teach and reprove us??

Woody I love the word of God..and I love when it speaks to me in a very personal way..

I dont have any "visual" gifts...but God teaches each of us as he will.

I also love to read commentaries..I love to listen to the word preached clearly and with out compromise,I spend a large part of each day listening to Pastors preach on the radio..

I do not accept it all as "truth",but it is such a gift to be able to surround myself with Gods word,and to hear and read what that word has said to others..

That does not substitute for my personal time in the word,it does not substitute for the Holy Spirit illuminating His word to me..it enriches it.

I have hung around these threads for some time because God has used them to speak to me.

As you know woody I looked for some time to find the scripture and was blessed when I did find it..It made me think about the servant Jesus,who washed feet,fed the hungry,and was obedient to death on a cross.

I thought about the Jesus that warned us that we were to be servent..that the servent is greater than the master.

That hunt gave me a blessing..

But in general I worry about "personal revelation" that is presented as a general truth..I think of the Mormons and geee the Muslims..the Christian Scientists etc. that took a vision,that was not well interpreted and tuned into a false religion.

So what I am trying to say, but not well, is I believe that the Holy Spirit leads us into all truth..but as doc was so fond of saying the heart is deceitful above all things........and so we are all subject to be deceived..

Now I look to church history,creeds,commentaries,pastors,teachers,sermons etc. to verify a truth that I believe I have found..

I am not so proud that I believe that God would ever choose me to show a new revelation .

I am looking to make peace between all involved here,because both of you seek after God. All involved on these threads have taught me new things about God and my faith..

We need to be washing feet here guys not throwing dirt...

May God give every one a blessed Sunday

[ReformedBeckite]

....I managed to stumble across much of Calvin's teaching and even parts of the short Westminster Confession (sp) without ever reading a word. ......

But you had to read it other wise you won't have known it was the Westminster Confession. The truth of the matter is that you probably have a whole library of books on various subjects of the Bible of which you agree on, but how would you know you agree with them unless you've read them. And if you start to read them then you are possible admitting that you are searching for the truth (God's truth)beyond what God has given us in the Bible. God's uses other vehicles or objects to teach us his word. If all we had to do was read the Bible to understand his word, you'll be out of a job. For to listen to a preacher or pastor preach would be like consulting a commentary on God's word. In that case after all the singing and praising God is done, then we ought to go home or get down to fellowship and forget about the sermon. I find books and commentaries cheaper then a pastors salary.

I see you proudly boast that you've figured out Calvinism by the reading of his word yourself. Well I didn't, in fact if I relied on just reading the Bible by myself I would have never come to the conclusion of what is referred to as Calvinism. Who knows what conclusion I would of come to. In fact I've found that those who boast the loudest of just studying the Bible, and memorizing the Bible are usually the farthest from the truth and the most ignorant of the truth of all of them. My belief in Calvinism didn't come from studying the word but from God bringing others into my life and by leading me to the right material of those who have been studying the truth. In fact I kind of believe that God has lead me to FR to help me learn some more of the truth other then what I can get from the man from behind the pulpit. Also a lot cheaper then a preachers salary.

[George W. Bush]

It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man commentaries. ... your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

No doubt true. And when you can finally read a parable without hallucinating that it's prophecy and imagining it to have a teaching quality comparable to that of scripture, then you should stop reading commentaries, bible study books, etc. Until then, you would benefit from a sober guide to Christian doctrine. However, for all your remarks ridiculing established scholars and theologians, I don't believe you actually rely upon God's Word alone. You are using other materials tpp, Woody. Your sneering at commentaries as a particular vice is merely a form of attack.

I don't know anyone who is truly sola scriptura. I don't think you do either.

[CCWoody]

But you had to read it other wise you won't have known it was the Westminster Confession.

No, I have never read it or the short one either.

The truth of the matter is that you probably have a whole library of books on various subjects of the Bible of which you agree on, but how would you know you agree with them unless you've read them.

My "library" source of reference is tiny. I rarely use anything except as a source aid for mormonism.

And if you start to read them then you are possible admitting that you are searching for the truth (God's truth)beyond what God has given us in the Bible.

You mean like direct revelation from God?

God's uses other vehicles or objects to teach us his word. If all we had to do was read the Bible to understand his word, you'll be out of a job. For to listen to a preacher or pastor preach would be like consulting a commentary on God's word. In that case after all the singing and praising God is done, then we ought to go home or get down to fellowship and forget about the sermon. I find books and commentaries cheaper then a pastors salary.

You proceed from the assumption that pastors sole or primary fuction is to teach us what the Bible means. If that were the case, I'd be really messed up.

I see you proudly boast that you've figured out Calvinism by the reading of his word yourself.

This is not the point I was trying to make. When I want to really learn something, I sit down with a Bible and ask Him to teach me. I still probably don't know what the TULIP is, but I know that the Bible teaches a few things on the subject. This is my complaint, BTW. Reading commentaries and understanding TULIP does not save. The only thing that saves is an upright relationship with the Living God.

Make me to understand the way of Thy precepts; so shall I talk of Thy wondrous works.

Give me understanding and I shall keep Thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.

Thy hands have made me and fashioned me; give me understanding, that I may learn Thy commandments.

I am Thy servant; give me understanding, that I may know Thy testimonies.

The entering of Thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.

The righteousness of Thy testimonies is everlasting; give me understanding, and I shall live.

Let my cry come near before Thee, O LORD; give me understanding according to Thy word.

How precious also are Thy thoughts unto me, O God! How great is the sum of them! If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand; when I awake, I am still with Thee.

[CCWoody]

Another post full of lies, except this:

I don't believe you actually rely upon God's Word alone.

I rely upon God alone.

Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust and not be afraid; for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; He also has become my salvation." Therefore my heart greatly rejoiceth, and with my song will I praise Him.

Thou hast turned for me my mourning into dancing; Thou hast put off my sackcloth and girded me with gladness, to the end that my glory may sing praise to Thee and not be silent. O LORD my God, I will give thanks unto Thee for ever.

[George W. Bush]

Another post full of lies, ...

How so? Have you finally retreated from your assertion that your "vision" is some sort of prophecy? If so, then how do you explain that you pictured yourself in this "vision" as drinking from a cup and being served by Christ?

Can you tell us what Jesus looked like? What was he wearing? Can you describe the location?

[CCWoody]

Can you tell us what Jesus looked like? What was he wearing? Can you describe the location?

I guess that not only do you misread even commentaries that you read, but you also misread even simple things like what I post.

Can you tell us what Jesus looked like? What was he wearing? Can you describe the location?

Well, somewhat, but it is hard to know when the terror of the Lord is upon you. If you had a discerning eye, you could have read about it.

[ReformedBeckite]

My "library" source of reference is tiny. I rarely use anything except as a source aid for mormonism.

I have a tendency to believe you, most those that claim to have visions don’t have to many books and the books they have came from the school of which they attended or books that the school recommended. Never the less I do believe you understate how many books you have. Another note on this subject I’ve found those that are mighty in God service more often have large libraries.

When I want to really learn something, I sit down with a Bible and ask Him to teach me.

I’ve heard that argument used by every school of theology that I’ve come across. It’s a pretty bad straw man argument.

This is my complaint, BTW. Reading commentaries and understanding TULIP does not save.

Yeah, think God were saved by grace, but on the other hand I learned about Grace and faith when I read stuff out side of the Bible, after reading the other stuff the Bible message became more clear.

The only thing that saves is an upright relationship with the Living God.

Sounds like you might be hinting at a works oriented gospel to me, if that’s the case I’ll pass on it and go with the gospel of GRACE.

[George W. Bush]

I guess that not only do you misread even commentaries that you read, but you also misread even simple things like what I post.

But everyone else read your writing in the same way, Woody. If seems to me that you are now backing away from what you said previously. Everyone else read your writing in the same way I did. So it's not just my misreading. And you debated for quite a long while with others if we misunderstood something.

Exactly what do you claim you saw and experienced in this "vision"?

Is your "vision" prophecy or is it not?

Did God command you to share your "vision" with others as a teaching as He command ancient prophrets to do?

[CCWoody]

Sounds like you might be hinting at a works oriented gospel to me, if that’s the case I’ll pass on it and go with the gospel of GRACE.

Naw, just quoting the Bible...

[CCWoody]

Exactly what do you claim you saw and experienced in this "vision"?

This conversation is over. If you want to read about what I saw and experienced, you can do so. I have posted it on this thread.

[George W. Bush]

This conversation is over. If you want to read about what I saw and experienced, you can do so. I have posted it on this thread.

No, you have not answered those questions. If you think you have, which post is it? I just looked at all of them. You are mighty shy about revealing these particulars considering what you have claimed for them.

Which post of yours on this thread explain:

• Exactly what do you claim you saw and experienced in this "vision"?
• Is your "vision" prophecy or is it not?
• Did God command you to share your "vision" with others as a teaching as He command ancient prophrets to do?

It seems strange that you have carried on at such length and now try to duck out by pretending that you have fully explained something when you have not.

[CCWoody]

If I remember, you have already declared me a false prophet so this is a funny time for you to ask such questions. As I said, this conversation is over.

[RnMomof7]

ReformedBeckite asked;
Sounds like you might be hinting at a works oriented gospel to me, if that’s the case I’ll pass on it and go with the gospel of GRACE.

Woody responded:
Naw, just quoting the Bible..

Woody when I read that I had the same thought as RB...upright sure sounds like works to me..so I did a search on it and found it only used in the OT, when men relied on the sacrifices they offered not on Grace. I dont believe that is what you meant.

Psalms 18:23 I was also upright before him, and I kept myself from mine iniquity.

[CCWoody]

Woody when I read that I had the same thought as RB...upright sure sounds like works to me..so I did a search on it and found it only used in the OT, when men relied on the sacrifices they offered not on Grace. I dont believe that is what you meant.

Since you quoted David's great Psalm of victory below, let's see what David also says about sacrifices:

Have mercy upon me, O God, according to Thy lovingkindness; according unto the multitude of Thy tender mercies, blot out my transgressions. Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. For I acknowledge my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me. Against Thee, Thee only, have I sinned and done this evil in Thy sight, that Thou mightest be justified when Thou speakest, and be clear when Thou judgest.

For Thou desirest not sacrifice, else would I give it; Thou delightest not in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and a contrite heart, O God, Thou wilt not despise.

I offer this sacrifice even today. It creates a thirsty soul.

They that sow in tears shall reap in joy. He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed, shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing his sheaves with him.

As the hart panteth for the water brooks, so panteth my soul for Thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God; when shall I come and appear before God?

Yet the LORD will command His lovingkindness in the daytime, and in the night His song shall be with me and my prayer unto the God of my life.

I think that the OT prophets knew a thing or two about the right way to worship God.

Psalms 18:23 I was also upright before him, and I kept myself from mine iniquity.

Sometimes the answer is not exactly as easy as punching up a search engine. Psalm 18 is one of my favorites BTW:

I will love Thee, O LORD, my strength. The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.

For who is God, except the LORD? Or who is a rock, except our God? It is God that girdeth me with strength, and maketh my way perfect. Thou hast also given me the shield of Thy salvation; Thy right hand hath held me up, and Thy gentleness hath made me great.

The LORD liveth, and blessed be my Rock! And let the God of my salvation be exalted! It is God that avengeth me, and subdueth the people under me; He delivereth me from mine enemies. Yea, Thou liftest me up above those that rise up against me; Thou hast delivered me from violent men. Therefore will I give thanks unto Thee, O LORD, among the heathen, and sing praises unto Thy name. Great deliverance giveth He to His king and showeth mercy to His anointed, to David and to his seed for evermore.

So, it appears as if David as well, credited God for his uprightness. But if you need other proof, then here it is (a small sample):

Keep back Thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me. Then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent of the great transgression.

Teach me to do Thy will, for Thou art my God. Thy Spirit is good; lead me into the land of uprightness.

Do good, O LORD, unto those that are good and to them that are upright in their hearts.

The righteous shall be glad in the LORD and shall trust in Him, and all the upright in heart shall glory.

And I will give them a heart to know Me, that I am the LORD; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God; for they shall return unto Me with their whole heart.

And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in My statutes and keep Mine ordinances, and do them. And they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

A new heart also will I give you and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and ye shall keep My judgments and do them.

Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with My whole heart and with My whole soul.

[RnMomof7]

Woody..I have been accused on these threads of quoting too much OT..It happens I love the OT.I find great comfort in it. And I loved the quotes you just used..they warm my heart.

But I do find it of interest the word "upright" is only in the OT, when the imperfect sacrifices of man were offered day after day....

I have some stuff to do,but when I get time I am going to see if there is a Greek NT word that could have been translated to "upright"...but another word was used.A brief look into my Hebrew English Concordance indicates that there are several different words translated as upright.

You always manage to get me to study and look things up..(Do you do that on purpose ?:>))It is good you know?

Romans 10

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

God is so good Woody !