Defense of Liberty: The Contours of Victory

The Free Republic ^ | September 30, 2001 | Annalex

[annalex]

Japan in WWII was as foreign a culture as militant Islam is now, and Japan had serious guns. General MacArthur's tenure is one historical lesson we shouldn't forget.

A foreign government that is told that it will physically survive only upon certain conditions imposed from abroad is, by definition, a puppet government.

[Texaggie79]

The subject is Afghanistan

Strictly? You do realize that the attack on us had nothing to do with us assisting Mujahedin. Unless you want to be one of the dopes criticizing the gov. for not being psychic in knowing that the Mujahedin would have eventually done this. Many, however in the Mujahedin during that time are quite opposed to the Taliban and those that have attacked us. I don't really see the point in addressing that.

You do realize that we were in a cold war with the Soviets, don't you?

[tpaine]

"Japan in WWII was as foreign a culture as militant Islam is now, and Japan had serious guns. General MacArthur's tenure is one historical lesson we shouldn't forget."

Show me a 'japan' in the fundamentalist muslim world. -- The closest are probably Pakistan & Indonesia and they are far to capitalist/'westernized' to ever allow a serious terrorist moverment to use them, or for fundmentalsts to gain control.

Thus, they would be the only candidates that we could use your WWII methods on, AFTER we bombed them into 'unconditional surrender'. You do realize you are talking of the methods of a 'total' WWII type war, don't you?

[Protagoras]

You do realize that the attack on us had nothing to do with us assisting Mujahedin.

That is not possible to ascertain unless you have a crystal ball. What might have happened without our intervention there is a matter of speculation. One consequence of that meddling was that the situation was created which fostered a regime that embraced terrorists in that place.

Now lets see if we can't steer your little self back on topic for yet another try. You advocated the invasion and occupation of a foreign country and the establishment of a puppet regime. You have avoided discussing that concept even though you introduced it. Do you embrace that idea or abandon it?

[Texaggie79]

Do you embrace that idea or abandon it?

I embrace occupying the nation as we should have after the battle with the Soviets was won. They are obviously incapable, in the state they are in, of forming a legitimate government. We have seen what happens when we allow anarchy to decide. It is just like in prison. Might makes right, and all must conform to what the mighty say.

I do not wish to impose our own form of government upon them, but merely a democratic one, where the government TRULY reflects the wishes of ALL Afghan people.

They need help. And the International community can provide it. For their benefit as well as our own, so that we do not have to face a similar regime in the future.

[annalex]

Since the Militant Islam does not present a serious military threat in the same sense as Japan did in 1945, no total war is necessary to establish our occupational force on the ground. The analogy with Japan under MacArthur is that Japan in WWII did represent an utterly alien warrior culture and in that sense is analogous to the ancient Arab warrior culture that we are facing today.

[tpaine]

Great synopsis.. But I disagree strongy with your conclusion:

"For the same reasons it will not be possible to limit our engagement to military means: "strike hard and get out". Any military campaign needs to be followed up by either an occupation regime, or establishment of a friendly government committed to a meaningful, from terrorism-fighting standpoint system of law enforcement. It is in our vital interest to leave the area not sooner than when a Muslim culture rooted in property rights and genuine political pluralism has a chance to withstand future recurrence of Arab militancy.

The policy advocated here has a discredited name: imperialism.

---------------------------------

We have, as you noted, a clash of fundamental values.

Individual fanatics are leading this movement, in and outside of governments and/or religious groups. We cannot decare war on the muslim world, or even on selected political parts of it, imo, without bringing on another global war. - WWIII.

Therefore, we should decare war on the fanatics, the individuals responsible. -- We should identify these individuals as it becomes possible, make our case, and announce to the world that no quarter will be given in their personal elimination , collateral death & destructon be damned.

After several such successful actions, killing thousands of these fanatics, the rest will learn our way. -- To live & let live. -- Or learn to die opposing it.

Imperialism, as you have defined it, will never work again unless the enemy is totally defeated, as per WWII.

We cannot fight the whole islamic world for its unconditional surrender. -#15-

[boris]

"I think that it would behoove us to simply decapitate and wait."

At last a statement I can agree with.

IMHO the correct course is:

-Rebuild our intelligence infrastructure;
-Work with Mossad to seek out and terminate the leadership of these organizations;
-Locate training facilities, germ and chem war plants--and destroy them utterly. Whatever it takes. Sometimes it will take a lot--see Libya's hardened and subterranean poison-gas plant.

We also need to take immediate and agressive action to purge our country of enemy aliens.

--Boris

[annalex]

Nice circle. Go on.

[Protagoras]

I embrace occupying the nation as we should have after the battle with the Soviets was won.

At least you are clear about your desire to have the US rule the world. You think that after an invasion of one country by another failed and the people in the country being invaded fought long enough to make the invaders withdraw, we should then have invaded that country and taken over ourselves? Amazing.

They are obviously incapable, in the state they are in, of forming a legitimate government.

This is the height of liberal/elitist rhetoric. The dumb people of the world cannot decide on their own what a legitimate government is so we will do it for them by force?

Might makes right, and all must conform to what the mighty say.

That describes precisely what you advocate for the US to do.

I do not wish to impose our own form of government upon them, but merely a democratic one,

Duh....that is how our form of government is decribed. You don't want to impose ours, merely ours.

TRULY reflects the wishes of ALL Afghan people.

Most of the world lives under governments that don't allow the wishes of ALL their people or even many of their people. I assume that you advocate attacking them and imposing a "democratic" form of government on them?

They need help. And the International community can provide it.

Hmmm,, kind of a one world government this "international community"?

Son, you have delusions of world domination. We have spent several wars killing people who thought exactly like you.

[annalex]

Your plan is fine. The controversial part is, what to do after the "decapitation" has occurred. My thesis is, these guys don't really have a "head", in the sense that they can quickly grow a new one, like whatever that mythological animal is (Medusa? mushroom? zits? my Greek is not what is used to be).

Incidentally, the decapitation strategy doesn't seem to work for Israel, and for the same reasons: when you have a hostile culture, there is no substitute for control of territory.

[boris]

Keep cutting off each new head as it sprouts. And--changing metaphors--cut off the rest of the nervous system too. And the tentacles.

--Boris

[boris]

"Incidentally, the decapitation strategy doesn't seem to work for Israel"

Really? When did they get serious about this strategy? How many opportunities have they had to rid the world of Arafat--the arch terrorist--who some will recall carried a handgun into the U.N.?

Do you suppose they'd let me, a mild and harmless fellow, carry a loaded weapon into the U.N. building?

--Boris

[annalex]

Cutting off each head means control of the territory, unless you are prepared to go through the Twin Towers cycle each time.

I don't know about missed assassination opportunities for Israel, but the strategy of surgical "decapitations", in place for at least a year now, didn't slow down the suicide bombers. I have a distinct impression that it is time for Israel to annex the PA territories and do some conventional policing there for a while. The last window of opportunity to do so closed on 9/11, but they shouldn't miss the next one.

[Texaggie79]

I have discovered your dilemma. Afghanistan has proven your Libertarian ideals to be idiotic. I have HARD FACT that says that they alone cannot install a legitimate government. We have allowed them the chance. It's not because they are mentally incompetent, it is that they are without. They are without, money, food, structure, organization. Afghanistan is a devastated nation that is BEGGING for international aid. They have well admitted themselves that they simply cannot do it alone.

This is not the time to spew you rhetoric. You simply want to sit back and watch millions of Afghans die in the name of noninterference. Then you want your grand children to face another Taliban.

[Carry_Okie]

Cutting off each head means control of the territory, unless you are prepared to go through the Twin Towers cycle each time.

I don't think that follows. Neither boris nor I are intimating that we shouldn't have intelligence capability on the ground in Afganistan (something we have lacked for some time). Nor do I think that such intelligence should necessarily be passive. It serves multiple purposes. Intelligence would allow us to support (and protect) leaders helping the Afganis develop a nascent government as well as identify enemies before they start blowing up buildings.

A puppet government isn't necessary. IMHO the liabilities exceed the benefits.

[Protagoras]

Afghanistan has proven your Libertarian ideals to be idiotic.

Exactly the opposite.

It is increasingly difficult to keep you on topic. You always spew your hatred of liberty as a way to escape the posts that you make.

You advocate a one world government, a policy of world domination thorough the use of force and the invasion and occupation of countries who do not embrace your ideal form of government. A government that you define as democracy but which is really fascism.

You are a disgrace to this country and you reflect a troubling image on your polictical party.

I repeat that this country has fought major wars to defeat people exactly like you.

[Protagoras]

Then you want your grand children to face another Taliban.

My grandchildren will have their hands full as they will have to do the same thing I have done and my parents have done. Fight against foes of liberty in all it's forms. Whether it's the Taliban or you. You are more dangerous than them. They are a bunch of goat herders in a far away country and we know who they are. You are a domestic thug with dreams of an authoritarian world who poses as a Republican and a conservative. It's a disguise that some don't see through. Most do but I will continue to expose you and others who pose a threat to our way of life just in case.

[Texaggie79]

You advocate a one world government

Do you know how to read? I have never even come close to sayin that.

[Texaggie79]

Ok, so you want to abandon the Afgans after we debunk the Taliban? Or wait, you're just a pu$$y that wants to forget about retaliation all together. Why don't you go march with the hippies in the streets? Now I get why you advocate legalization of drugs, you dope head.

Go sing kumbaya and perhaps it will all go away.