Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

To: pipeorganman pegleg allend RobbyS SoothingDave
Thanks, pipeorganman and pegleg, for your replies to my question about the meaning of the gates of hell not prevailing against the church. So it is clear that the Catholics believe that this applies to teaching correct doctrine, NOT to the character or impeccability of the leaders of the church.

The question remains open then as to what constitutes "the church". Catholics and Protestants of course have diverging beliefs about this. Now, it seems that the Catholic Church understands this two different ways. First, there is the institutional Church, with apostolic succession and an organizational structure. Second, there is the Body of Christ. The second definition is of course more in line with Protestant understanding.

Let me ask about the passage from Lumen Gentium, in which it is stated that the Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church. What exactly does this mean? It seems to me to be saying that the Catholic Church is NOT identically equal to the Body of Christ. How do you understand the relationship between the two?

54 posted on 09/30/2001 6:24:43 PM PDT by malakhi
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies ]


To: angelo
Let me ask about the passage from Lumen Gentium, in which it is stated that the Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church. What exactly does this mean? It seems to me to be saying that the Catholic Church is NOT identically equal to the Body of Christ. How do you understand the relationship between the two?

The problem, I believe is the definition of the word subsists. I think many define it as subset, or something similar.

Subsist, defined according to Webster indicates 1 a. to have existence: BE. Thus the Church of Christ is the Catholic Church.

1 b. Persist, continue. The Church of Christ continues in the Catholic Church.

2. to have or aquire the necessities of life (as food and clothing); esp to nourish oneself. The Catholic Church contains all that is necessary for one's spiritual life, including the nourishment of one's soul with the Body and Blood of Christ.

3 a. to hold true. The Catholic Church holds true to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

3 b.to be logically conceivable as the subject of true statements. The Catholic Church is logically conceivable as she is based upon the true statements of Jesus Christ.

Thus the Church of Christ is and continues to be the Catholic Church.

The Body of Christ is both the members of Christ's Body and the institutional Church. Christ is the head of the body, for without a head, a body cannot exsist. Christ returned to the Father, but promised to remain with us always. He remains with us by the establishment of the institutional Church. Christ gave us a visible representive, the Pope, to fulfill His promise. Thus the Pope stands in Christ's place as the head of the body. The rest of the heirachy, if you will, is the neck. Like the neck, they communicate Christ's teachings to the rest of the body. The remainder, and majority of the body is its members. The body is one with the head, but made of individuals, and yet united with Christ. As St. Paul said, "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Their is neither Jew nor Greek, their is neither slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Gal. 3:27-28

63 posted on 10/01/2001 12:05:47 AM PDT by pipeorganman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 54 | View Replies ]

To: angelo
Let me ask about the passage from Lumen Gentium, in which it is stated that the Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church. What exactly does this mean? It seems to me to be saying that the Catholic Church is NOT identically equal to the Body of Christ.

From the Catechism. 789. "The comparison of the Church with the body casts light on the intimate bond between Christ and his Church. Not only is she gathered around him; she is united in him, in his body. Three aspects of the Church as the Body of Christ are to be more specifically noted: the unity of all her members with each other as a result of their union with Christ; Christ as head of the Body; and the Church as BRIDE of Christ.

67 posted on 10/01/2001 4:49:39 AM PDT by pegleg
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 54 | View Replies ]

To: angelo
Let me ask about the passage from Lumen Gentium, in which it is stated that the Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church. What exactly does this mean? It seems to me to be saying that the Catholic Church is NOT identically equal to the Body of Christ. How do you understand the relationship between the two?

What is meant by this is not, as Protestants like to view things, that there are many people in the Body of Christ some of whom are Catholic. That the Catholic Church is a subset of all who are "saved."

This is exactly wrong. The members of the Body of Christ are a subset of all attached to the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is the larger of the two and all Christians are united to Her by their Baptisms.

SD

80 posted on 10/01/2001 7:13:47 AM PDT by SoothingDave
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 54 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson