Governor of All: God was sovereign over September 11 and so we have hope.

World Magazine ^ | October 6, 2001 edition | John Piper

[greggy]

You have then, in effect, made yourself God.

I want to say this as gently as I can. I don't want to get into an argument here. But look at what you are saying here for a moment. If God can do as he pleases, why does he "look for a man to pray for the nation"? Obviously, he cannot extend his mercies without someone asking him to.

In addition, to question the goodness of God, based on your view of events, is blaspemous.

I just told you what Jesus said.

It appears that you do not want a sovereign God.

Perhaps it appear this way to you, but it is not what I am saying.

[greggy]

Do you think God's arm is too short to have stopped the terrior if He chose?

If he can do as he pleases, if he can extend his mercy to us unilaterally, why then does he first seek a man to pray for the nation under judgement? Obviously, he cannot just act unilaterally, for if he could, the devil would be able to call him on it and accuse God of breaking his own laws of interfering with the plans and intentions of man on the earth. Remember, we are free will individuals.

[greggy]

I don't think God is on anyones side. He just is.

God is on my side. God is on the side of the church. God is on Israel's side. Why? Because of covenant. The western mind thinks of ink covenants, but the eastern mind this of blood covenants. If you understood blood covenant, you would understand what is occurring in Israel today.

God has a blood covenant with Jacob (Israel) and to all of his decendents, the nation of Israel today. That covenant states that the land is theirs. It also states that this third time they entered into nation hood (1948) will be the last and final time, and that they will never be taken away from nation hood again. So why do the Muslims (not just Arab Muslims, for Iran is Persian) want them driven into the sea and all killed? Why did Hitler want to kill them all in ovens?

Let's look back at the book of Genesis, where we see in the Garden of Eden, the devil deceives Eve. He says, "Has God said that you cannot touch of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?"

Today, the world leaders, many of them, but thank God not Prsident Bush, are lining up into the same deception, "Has God said that the west bank will be Jacob's?" Remember the story of Jacob's ladder? People are astounded with the thought of angels climbing stairs to and fro between the earth and heaven, but the real action is when God speaks (when God speaks, things happen). God said, "This land I will give to you and your decendents after you." Where was that? The west bank. So yes, God has said, but the Arab Muslims refuse to acknowledge this because the devil knows his time is very short - and I mean very short!

If you simply look at what is happening in the middle east today in the eyes of the devil trying to thwart God's plan for Israel, you will see the devil is doing nothing more than to alter God's Word. Everything hinges on God's Words. He framed and created the universe with His Words.

The devil understands the power of words, especially the words that come from man. They are powerful enough to keep us from receiving the blessings of God. The 12 spies who spied out the land for Moses came back, and ten spoke words that were taken by the entire congregation and thus their words kept them in the wilderness for 40 years. This is one example of where man's words were used against him by the deception of the devil to keep God's plan from coming to pass.

But we already know that God's plan for these end days will come to pass, for the prophecies in the bible are not alterable. Some how, some where, God will find some one to pray out his plans. I assure you.

[Patriotic Teen]

I don't know how you can honestly say that God is the cause of this destruction. God is not at the center of evil.

The fact of the matter is that these people who did this did this in the name of their god. I don't care to comment on whether they practice a rogue form of Islam or not, but they serve a false god, they did not do this destruction in the name of our God.

Now obviously God, in His permissive will, allowed it to happen. And it is being used for good. I look at this as God using it as a wake-up call, but don't pin the cause of this on Him.

[greggy]

Aren't you just a little presumptious [regarding Jesus' return by 2008]?

Matt 21:20-32 says that the generation that witnessed the taking back of Jerusalem from the Gentiles will not leave the earth until Jesus comes back. A generation is 40 years long, and Jerusalem was taken back in the six day war in 1967. Thus, by the end of 2007 (or what I said was "by" 2008), Jesus will be back.

Now there are 88 reasons that lead someone to believe 1988, and that is their interpretation of scripture. But my point here is that I don't know what year. I just know that it must occur by the end of 2007. The author at least had that much right.

[greggy]

Along with Job, I can say: "Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him".

Now there you have a perfect example of what Jesus was saying. Jesus said that the devil came to kill, steal, and destroy. The devil was the one that slew Job, but Job did not know this, just like a lot of you here don't know this.

[RnMomof7]

Matt 21:20-32 says that the generation that witnessed the taking back of Jerusalem from the Gentiles will not leave the earth until Jesus comes back. A generation is 40 years long, and Jerusalem was taken back in the six day war in 1967. Thus, by the end of 2007 (or what I said was "by" 2008), Jesus will be back. Now there are 88 reasons that lead someone to believe 1988, and that is their interpretation of scripture. But my point here is that I don't know what year. I just know that it must occur by the end of 2007. The author at least had that much right.

I too have found that there is NT scripture that has some actual prophetic meaning..Israel was 'born' in 1948....scripture says that that generation will not pass away..(that would be your 1988) but I am of THAT generation ..and I am still here..

I have taken it in terms of life expentencey as opposed to an arbitrary 40 year generation..(In social work they call 10 years a generation ...as for cohorts..)

One way or the other I believe we will hear those trumpets...

[Screenameless]

All I know for certain is that the earth has at least 7 years left.

<><

[RnMomof7]

All I know for certain is that the earth has at least 7 years left.

Just keep looking up:>) Ya never know

[greggy]

Could God have prevented this?
Yes, he could have prevented this at any time.
Why didn't he?
Because he knows of the good that will come from these evil actions by these men.

My sister told me once that in these end days there will be some Christians that will be martyred, and that I might be one of them- that I just don't know. I proceded to tell her that if she was right, I could never trust God (have faith in His word) that He would protect me from lethal persecution, for I would always wonder (doubt) if perhaps this was His plan for my way of death. I proceded to tell her that since I don't doubt God, I cannot accept her doctrine. Her doctrine is one that placed doubt into our faith for God's protection upon us. And since you cannot please God without faith, her doctrine would cause us to be displeasing toward God.

The same with your doctrine. We would always be wondering when ever we get into an airliner that we find is being hijacked, "Perhaps we will die and yet God has ordained this to get some good out of it." Immediately, we doubt God will protect us for we think perhaps it is now at this time that he chooses not to. But thank God, God never changes. He will protect me tomorrow on a plane just as he did when I spun out on the freeway at 70 MPH, or slid in the rain in the dark crowded HWY 101 one night many years ago. God will protect me because he told me so, and I intend to trust him so that I may please him. I refuse to accept any doctrine that would contradict my faith in his provision of protection.

[greggy]

Jesus said when Jerusalem was taken back from the Gentiles, and that did not occur until 1967. He said nothing of Israel being born again as a nation as you mention.

Also, 40 years is the standard biblical period of time for a single generation.

Finally, we have seen a 7 year peace plan that turned out to have been a deception. The next one is the real deal spoken of in Daniel. The parallel can be seen with Jacob and the two 7 year contracts he had with his uncle for a bride- the first was a deception, the second was for real. I expect the second any time now to start. Then within three and a half years of that, the church will be rescued and the great tribulation will begin. So if the next seven year contract does not begin until 2003, we will still be off the earth by the end of 2007.

[Right_Wing_Mole_In_Seattle]

... accuse God of breaking his own laws of interfering with the plans and intentions of man on the earth.

Does God have a "law" saying that He cannot "[interfere] with the plans and intentions of man on the earth"?

Scripture reference?

[Anitius Severinus Boethius]

Does God every promise that harm or troubles will never come your way? Let's look at what the scriptures say.

John 16:33
"I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world."

2 Corinthians 6:1-10
1 As God's fellow workers we urge you not to receive God's grace in vain.
2 For he says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you." I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation.
3 We put no stumbling block in anyone's path, so that our ministry will not be discredited.
4 Rather, as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: in great endurance; in troubles, hardships and distresses;
5 in beatings, imprisonments and riots; in hard work, sleepless nights and hunger;
6 in purity, understanding, patience and kindness; in the Holy Spirit and in sincere love;
7 in truthful speech and in the power of God; with weapons of righteousness in the right hand and in the left;
8 through glory and dishonor, bad report and good report; genuine, yet regarded as impostors;
9 known, yet regarded as unknown; dying, and yet we live on; beaten, and yet not killed;
10 sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; poor, yet making many rich; having nothing, and yet possessing everything.

Matthew 24:9

"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me."

And finally, words of Wisdom from Solomon.

Ecclesiates 9:12

Moreover, no man knows when his hour will come: As fish are caught in a cruel net, or birds are taken in a snare, so men are trapped by evil times that fall unexpectedly upon them.

I can think of no better way to refer to those who perished on September 11th than "evil times that fall unexpectedly".

God does not promise us physical protection, but he does provide comfort and love here on earth and eternal life to those that believe.

[Don'tMessWithTexas]

Thousands of God's people were killed in the coliseum and used as torches at Nero's garden parties. God did not spare them from their fate. Was God impotent in that situation? Surely there were thousands in Rome who were praying for the relief of their bretheren. Under your theology. God was obligated to pluck them up from the coliseum floor. You dare not say it but you are telling God what he should be doing and stating that God's act are dependent and subservient to man's will. This places man in a position of vetoing God. Please reconsider your position.

[RnMomof7]

My sister told me once that in these end days there will be some Christians that will be martyred, and that I might be one of them- that I just don't know. I proceded to tell her that if she was right, I could never trust God (have faith in His word) that He would protect me from lethal persecution, for I would always wonder (doubt) if perhaps this was His plan for my way of death. I proceded to tell her that since I don't doubt God, I cannot accept her doctrine. Her doctrine is one that placed doubt into our faith for God's protection upon us. And since you cannot please God without faith, her doctrine would cause us to be displeasing toward God.

Ask Steven,or Peter or Paul..

If your faith depends on being saved from prosecution you need to consider if it is saving faith.

Revelation - 12:11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

[greggy]

Who does Jesus state is the god of this world?

[greggy]

Matthew 24:9

"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me."

You failed to conclude that passage with "...but the one who endures to the end will be saved"- v13. Why did you do that? Because it contradicts your doctrine that we have no choice in the matter.

Let me address this entire point one more time and I will not address it any further, because in my mind it is so clear that you would need people on a news group (or FR) to write endless posts to convince you otherwise.

Why did Jesus die on the cross? To save all man kind from sin and the result of sin, death in hell.

Why do not all men come to Jesus for this salvation? Because they need to choose.

Why are not all Christians healed of every disease and every sickness since Jesus paid the price for such deliverance already? Because, believe it or not, their will is involved.

So it is with the passage you quote. There are Christians that will be martyred. But that does not mean it was God's choice for them. Jesus never said that, "It is God's good pleasure that you die for my name's sake." But your use of this passage is clearly intended to imply this is what Jesus meant to say.

A case in point. Remember the Canary Island 747 collision years ago? Two 747s crashed into each other on the runway. The cabins filled with smoke. As I understand the story- as my sister related it to me- a Christian in one of the smoke filled cabins heard people screaming and cursing at God for the disaster that was bringing death to them quickly. He realized there was no way out, so he lifted his hands and began to praise God. Instantly, God translated him and he was sitting on the wing of the aircraft in safety. Now he had a choice to make. He could have done any number of things. But he chose to trust God. He was the only one to do so. He was the only one miraculously saved.

Remember David and Ziklag? He had a choice. He and his men cried until they could not cry any longer. The men were getting ready to kill David because they blamed him for what happened. He finally realized that crying was not going to move God and he began to praise God. That is what moves God. Praise and Worship are the HIGHEST forms of prayer. Here is the point. HAD DAVID NOT PRAISED GOD, HE WOULD HAVE DIED!!! He had a choice to make, and so do each of you.

Remember David and Goliath? David was the only man that made the decision to trust in his covenant with God. Each of those men had the same covenant with God, but David was the only one to choose to trust God. The point is that they all had the choice to make, and they each had the same opportunity to be the hero for their nation. But only David chose wisely.

Faith is what pleases God. If you doubt He will save you from anything for a moment, then you are doubting and that displeases God. It is really that simple, folks.

[Right_Wing_Mole_In_Seattle]

I assume you're talking about the places where Jesus talks about Satan as the "prince of this world." Does this mean that Satan is sovereign over the earth and God does not intervene at all?

[greggy]

This places man in a position of vetoing God.

This is only true if you take the position that God came to kill, steal and destroy. I am sorry, I cannot accept that. Jesus said that the devil came to kill, steal and destroy and that he came to give us life and life more abundantly. You can be as figurative in your interpretation as you want. I plan to trust God and please him by my trusting him. Let's see which of us dies and which is saved until the end. No more debate- let's just wait and see, shall we.

[greggy]

I think any revival will be short-lived. They generally are.

There is much I could say, but I will leave it at this- you haven't even begun to see the revival, and it will not end until Jesus takes the church off the earth. Until then, the church will grow from one degree of glory to another. We are talking the Shekina Glory of God- the manifest presence of the Glory of God.

Then the great tribulation will come.