[GOPcapitalist]

Please draw a distinction between the Turkish Armies, and the Armies of Islam.

I only draw that distinction to the point that the Turkish Army and Turkey spread Islam. It's an undeniable fact of history. Live with it.

We did not set out to expand Islam, but our own empire.

I suppose that's why your army had a big islamic religious service before they prepared to do battle as Islam was advancing on Austria.

There is a distinction between us, and say a crusading army of Christianity made up of all kinds of nationalities.

Indeed there is. Your army set out to expand its territory into areas where it previously did not exist. The crusaders set out to reclaim what had been stolen from them by Islam a few centuries prior.

We were the Turks, not the "Armies of Islam."

And the Turks are an Islamic army with components of several different regions over which the ottoman turkish empire existed, including segments in of north africa, asia minor, the balkans, and elsewhere. So yes, your army was one of Islam that practiced Islam, promoted Islam, expanded Islam into the areas it conquered by the sword, and forced that Islam upon the people in those conquered regions.

Yours is the kind of thinking that Serbs used in Bosnia, and the Europeans kinda dug: namely to push Islam out of Europe.

Don't LIE about what I stand for (after all, isn't LYING sinful in your religion?). I have not advocated anything of the sort buddy. At worst, my only crime is posting historical facts that, in some cases, demonstrate major segments of Islam to be less than "enlightened" and in fact downright backwards in thinking. You obviously don't like those little facts so in order to propagate your Islam apologism, you lie and falsely accuse me of subscribing to a Serb viewpoint of expelling muslims from Europe, which in no way, shape, or form, have I advocated.

But that can't be done, and all they really succeeded in doing was kill a bunch of Bosnians.

Indeed they did, and at the same time they killed a bunch of Croats, who in turn killed serbs, just as the Bosnians also did. No side in the Balkans is a perfectly "innocent" victim. Among the various sides there are some leaders who are worse than others. But on the whole, all three sides took part in the bloodshedding.

I'm trying to tell you that our Armies did not belong to Islam, but to us Turks.

And I am responding by telling you that to suggest Islam was not a part of your armies is ABSURD because (1) historical evidence shows that Islam was a major part of those armies and (2) those armies undeniably and aggressively spread Islam with their conquests.

There's a distinction to be made there, which you may be too brainwashed by now to make.

You of all people have no business calling anybody else "brainwashed." Based on your posting, it is evident to me that you are so enthralled in your Islamic apologism that you will not even debate the valid points made by those who differ with you, and instead you lobby charges of "bigotry" and make false accusations (like the one you made at me) at all who disagree with your particular position. Though you may practice Islam, I would offer to say that you know not much about many aspects of your own religion and its histories, philosophies, and culture. I am no all knowing expert on Islam as a religion itself, but I do have an extensive background in Islamic philosophy and some of Islam's history, both of which I studied in college. In other words, I think it fair to say that the comments i have posted on Islam in this and other threads are educated, and not some garbage propaganda brainwashing that you purport them to be.

So why don't you drop the smug "only I can authoritatively talk about Islam" attitude you have been expressing here and elsewhere on this forum and realize that there just may be (1) other people out there in the world who know Islam as well as if not better than you and (2) other people out there in the world who have developed both different and fully educated viewpoints than yours about Islam?

Perhaps if you did that you might find yourself with a few more friends around here.

[a_Turk]

Alright, there's not much either one of us can do here but agree to disagree. I remember fighting with one of my American history teachers when he called Turkey and Islamic state. No, I said, Turkey is a Secular state with a population of 98% muslims. Neither of us would budge, I got a bad grade. All in all I apreciated your post, and respect you for it. My beef was quite minor in the scheme of things, yet in advanced stages of civilization small wrinkles become meaningful, so I commented.

Please draw a distinction between the Turkish Armies, and the Armies of Islam.
I only draw that distinction to the point that the Turkish Army and Turkey spread Islam. It's an undeniable fact of history. Live with it.

So we did, but it was not our primary concern. Thus we did not force folks to convert. Those who did not convert kept living under their customary local laws, which in many cases such as land ownership and heredity were favorable to those under which muslim subjects had to live.

We did not set out to expand Islam, but our own empire.
I suppose that's why your army had a big islamic religious service before they prepared to do battle as Islam was advancing on Austria.

Everybody has religious service before going to war. So do the US armed forces. Does that mean that the US is in Afghanistan to spread Christianity? No, but Pax Americana.

There is a distinction between us, and say a crusading army of Christianity made up of all kinds of nationalities.
Indeed there is. Your army set out to expand its territory into areas where it previously did not exist. The crusaders set out to reclaim what had been stolen from them by Islam a few centuries prior.

Oh, Ok. Stolen. So were the Americas stolen? I call it conquered.

We were the Turks, not the "Armies of Islam."
And the Turks are an Islamic army with components of several different regions over which the ottoman turkish empire existed, including segments in of north africa, asia minor, the balkans, and elsewhere. So yes, your army was one of Islam that practiced Islam, promoted Islam, expanded Islam into the areas it conquered by the sword, and forced that Islam upon the people in those conquered regions.

Yeah conquered by the sword. What did you conquer by? By the rifle? Sorry, we were backward. Also, we never forced them to convert, and most did not convert.

Yours is the kind of thinking that Serbs used in Bosnia, and the Europeans kinda dug: namely to push Islam out of Europe.
Don't LIE about what I stand for (after all, isn't LYING sinful in your religion?).....

You misunderstand, I am not accusing you of endorsing those atrocities in Bosnia. I am merely pointing out that Just as the Bosnians do not embody or represent Islam, neither really does Turkey.

I'm trying to tell you that our Armies did not belong to Islam, but to us Turks.
And I am responding by telling you that to suggest Islam was not a part of your armies is ABSURD because (1) historical evidence shows that Islam was a major part of those armies and (2) those armies undeniably and aggressively spread Islam with their conquests.

Good! Islam was and is part of us, but we are not Islam (jeeez!). And again, the conquered had a choice. If they did not convert, that was ok. Most did not convert.

There's a distinction to be made there, which you may be too brainwashed by now to make.
You of all people have no business calling anybody else "brainwashed." Based on your posting, it is evident to me that you are so enthralled in your Islamic apologism that you will not even debate the valid points made by those who differ with you, and instead you lobby charges of "bigotry" and make false accusations (like the one you made at me) at all who disagree with your particular position. etc. etc.

Brainwashed are always the last to know. I may be, I suppose.. But I know a bigot when I see one. I can't say you are one, but I can say that there are quite a few on this forum. Religion has always been an effective means by which populations could be motivated for war. You can see it happen right here right now. And I am not apologizing, even though I do sympathize, for Islam itself.. And I cannot apologize for the terrorists, since I am not one of them. But if you call them the forces of islam, and you call my army the force of islam too, then I have an issue with that.

So why don't you drop the smug "only I can authoritatively talk about Islam" attitude you have been expressing here and elsewhere on this forum and realize that there just may be (1) other people out there in the world who know Islam as well as if not better than you and (2) other people out there in the world who have developed both different and fully educated viewpoints than yours about Islam? Perhaps if you did that you might find yourself with a few more friends around here.

You should have realized by now, my good man, that I am way too old to still be kissing ass for people to like me. Who cares.

God bless.