[Hank Kerchief]

The problem here is that you all believe you are dealing
others who have the same values as you. These "God's
judgement" folks do not have the same values as we do. They
have absolutely no concern with human suffering, in
fact, they believe that most human beings are going to
suffer unimaginable torment forever, and are quite
happy about it.

They do not believe that causing human suffering and pain
and death is evil. They believe the evil of any act
depends on who does it. For example, they do not
believe the fact that thousands of human beings suffered
terror, and who knows how much pain, and then died in
the planes and the WTC was evil in itself. After all,
they believe that most of those who suffered these indescribable
terrors were upon their death, immediately
ushered into a place of eternal horror and suffering by
the God they worship.

These same people will condemn the terrorists for doing to
people, for a little while, what they believe their
God is going to do to them forever.

Do you really expect rational answers from such people? It
is best to leave them alone. They are very
ineffectual, in any case.

By the way, if there happens to be a response from any of
these folks to this, I predict it will be
vituperative rather than cogent, just to prove my case.

Hank

[drlevy88]

Let me address your sharpest objection by saying that, in one perspective, people send themselves to hell by rejecting salvation from their sins "no matter what." It's a spiritual matter between the person's soul and the Holy Spirit. Nobody who is willing to be saved, will be lost. The Bible shows us so -- "God is not willing that any should perish but all come to eternal life." It's up to you to say yes or no. Don't complain if you won't come in from the cold then find yourself freezing to death.

[Campion]

Hey Hank, if I tell you I think you're full of it, is that "vituperative rather than cogent"?

The problem here is that you all believe you are dealing others who have the same values as you. These "God's judgement" folks do not have the same values as we do.

See how cogent I can be: I'll begin by agreeing with you!

They have absolutely no concern with human suffering, in fact, they believe that most human beings are going to suffer unimaginable torment forever, and are quite happy about it.

I'm not going to claim to speak for RnMomof7. She doesn't speak for me, in fact (if I recall correctly), I don't believe she considers me a Christian at all. So these are my own opinions only.

That having been said, I believe nothing remotely like this. I don't know whether "most people" are going to suffer eternal hellfire, and I am most certainly not "happy" about it, because God isn't "happy about it": Scripture says in several places that God would rather the sinner repent and live.

As to being indifferent to human suffering, I'm so "indifferent to human suffering" that I believe that in offering my suffering, and that of my brothers and sisters, up to God in love and trust I image my crucified God in an act that is literally sacred. Sound like "indifference" to you?

They do not believe that causing human suffering and pain and death is evil.

I assume you mean the suffering of innocent humans? In that case, this statement is simply a lie.

They believe the evil of any act depends on who does it. For example, they do not believe the fact that thousands of human beings suffered terror, and who knows how much pain, and then died in the planes and the WTC was evil in itself.

Total rot, Hank.

Here, let me clarify my mental sickness and Taliban-like tendencies for you and OWK:

1. God does not cause (moral) evil. He is never the author of sin. Never.
2. The acts of 9/11 were grave moral evils. Therefore, God did not cause them.
3. God permitted the acts of 9/11. How do we know this? Because nothing happens that God does not either ordain or at least permit. Since it happened, and God did not ordain it, he permitted it.
4. Why did God permit the acts of 9/11? I don't know, but I do know that he intends to bring a greater good out of great evil. Warning the United States that its sins, as a nation, are heaped-up kindling waiting for a match might well be that greater good.
5. Does that mean that God used Osama bin Laden as an instrument? Sure does. He also used the Assyrians and Babylonians as an instrument in the OT. A strong case can be made that the Roman conquest of Jerusalem in AD 70 is described in similar terms in the NT.
6. Does that mean that what bin Laden did was right? Of course not! God permits evil, and uses it to accomplish good. That doesn't mean it's ever okay to work evil.
7. Do the innocent suffer for the sins of the guilty? Yep, sure do. Ever heard of a crucified Jewish carpenter named Jesus of Nazareth?
8. But isn't that unjust? Yes, it may sometimes appear that way. But in the long run, I believe we will see that it is not only perfectly just, but perfectly merciful.

You and OWK may now proceed to denounce me as sick, mentally unstable, un-American, and the moral equivalent of the Taliban. Frankly, if that's the most coherent response you can muster, I'll feel pretty secure in my beliefs.