Posted on 09/16/2001 4:58:12 PM PDT by VinnyTex
GOD DID IT, PART II: Reader Randall Parker calls my attention to this Worldnet Daily article by Anthony C. LoBaido, which makes Jerry Falwell's offensive theodicy look sophisticated and kind. A small sample:
Is New York the head of the "Great Satan"? All that is evil in the world can be found in New York: MTV, the United Nations, the U.N. abortion programs, the Council on Foreign Relations, New Age Church of St. John the Divine, Wall Street greed, Madison Avenue manipulation and of course more confirmed AIDS cases than the rest of America combined. Let's remember the filthy sodomite gay parade last summer in New York. Let's remember all the New York politicians falling all over themselves to praise this sick spectacle.These guys should apologize to their fellow Americans, but first they should apologize to God. Since WND chooses to end the piece with a plug for my friend Hugh Hewitt's book, implicating Hugh in the article's sentiment, I've asked Hugh for a response. I hope he will cancel his Worldnet Daily column. Free speech is essential as government policy, but there are some people, as Ramesh Ponnuru puts it in this excellent column, whom civilized people should not let into our houses. Not only LoBaido but the editors who published him should be shunned. [Posted 9/15.]And let's not forget that New Yorkers elected—by a landslide—the openly Marxist, treasonous and abortion-mongering, occultic Hillary to a Senate seat. All while fully knowing what she was all about.
So are we all innocent here in New York? Are we innocent with our porno, drugs, filthy Jay Leno monologues, our idolatry, materialism and consumerism? Innocent when Republican Governor George Pataki stands next to the blood-stained dictator of Communist China as he rings the opening bell for the stock market on Wall Street?...
Can the remnant in America help but honestly ask themselves: Is this the fulfillment of Revelation chapters 17 and 18 (Mystery Babylon) or has God raised up Shiite Islam as a sword against America?
An this is the way it is and this is the way it has been and this is the way it is going to be. You and I or as far as that goes anybody else is NOT going to change it. It is crazy to think anyone can
Because of this many want to blame God for things happening. But when man brings it on himself he is the only one at fault. Everyone who wants to be thier own little god and in the process ingore the Creator who is the true and only God
Regards
don
America is not, nor was it ever a Christian nation. This was clearly established in the early 1800's by the Barbary Declaration. In order to trade with Islamic pirates (terrorists???), America decided to state unequivicolly that she was a secular state.
To try to apply promises made to Israel to the church? Thats a misapplication of Romans 11. The church wasnt given Canaan, so to say that we are in danger of loosing that inheritance is at best a stretch. (Of course, apostasy does lead to a loss of aspects of our spiritual inheritence. When a believer falls into sin and apostasy, he looses much of his communion with God until he repents. So there is an added spiritual application to the sole interpretation.
Please pray for America.
Keep in mind that we are arguing about a cause that is not fully known. I do not think the Lord is the causal force. I believe the cause of this evil has at least ONE root. Enemies of America are waiting to take her down. But the enemy has no chance against a morally strong people. However, the enemy knows that a morally depraved people and a divided nation is easy prey. America is loaded up to the sky with the morally depraved and is clearly divided. The last election showed that.
So the enemy sees an opening to attack as a result of this. I do believe it is the sinful corruption of others that led to the death of those in this tragedy. Some who died in the disaster were innocent of the corruption, others were guilty. Those to whom sought to bring glory to God in their lives are simply innocent victims in a war.
But the creators of the moral climate in this country carry the full weight of the blame. As the weaken the moral center, the enemy seeks to take advantage of that weakness. As the enemy takes advantage of that weakness, there are going to be casualties of people who had no part in the moral decline and dividing of the nation. The tragedy is that good people will suffer because of the acts of evil people. This is why it is a good thing to get rid of groups like the ACLU, and for Christians to start praying and evangelizing like never before. The only way to rebuild the moral center is to have the evil people repent and change their ways. The stronger the moral center, the deeper the commitment to Christ, the more impenetrable the nation, and the less opportunity for an enemy to attack.
Jesus said He came to save men's lives, not destroy them. But a nation will be vulnerable to calamity -- which includes the loss of life of good people -- if the greater mass of inhabitants turn away from adhering to the principles of scripture.
And you are right, the Lord has the devil on a leash. Who can know the mind of God? Who are we to say what the justice of God is? The Lord used Cyrus the King of Persia, a very evil man, to go in and wreak havoc with ancient Israel.
But the judgement is merely the effect of a cause where a morally depraved nation is vulnerable to attack. That is just a very very basic fact of history. The outflow from the rejection of the Lord by too many people in this country has made the WHOLE country vulberable to attack, wherin the good AND the agents of the cause (bad) die. Thus oerhaps we should reserve some venom for all the anti Christ liberal pigs who made it their career to bring America to this depraved low point as well as Osama Bib Laden and his evil gang.
But the decision to repent lies with the individual. If the Christians do not evangelize, do not pray, and MOST IMPORTANTLY lead lives of credibility and integrity -- all of which for the most part has NOT been happening in this country for YEARS -- then the net result will be a nation of morally weak, emasculated dullards, who believe in nothing, and will not be able to defend themselves against an aggressor who wants to take from them their life and property. The United States is a pretty sweet piece of real estate, and you can bet lots of people would like to get it. But they cannot take this land without a fight.
If the people of this Christian nation divorce themselves from the God who raised the nation up, then they will become the type of people who will be easy prey for an enemy. The judgement of God means that when we stop serving the Lord and rspecting His Word, we become weak. An aggressive, demonic, maniacal enemy can take down such an opponent in a heartbeat.
But there is another problem, and that is the evil that flows from the top. Stalin massacred millions of Christians. This is why we must make sure we know who are rulers are, and that they are not evil. Otherwise no matter how devoted the citizen is to God, an evil ruler will kill as many as he wants. This begs the question, then, WHO is the leader (or leaders) in this world today? WHO are the people behind Osama Bin Laden? If THESE people are killed, than we can eliminate another layer of suffering that can befall an otherwise good people.
And I define good as anybody who cnfesses their sin the Jesus, and agrees with the word of God.
BinLadin is no avenging angel. He and his ilk are no real threat to the survival of America. Only Americans can end America.
It's up to us.
Peace. -MM
I'll ignore the vituperative, because I asked for it.
Here is what I think the real danger is. This business of claiming evil events to God's specific judgement of our country, or any other, is really an attempt to be prophetic, that is, to add to the Scriptures what is not there.
Amos 3:7 says, "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets," so, unless you believe extra-biblical revelation exists today, to claim to know that any event is the directly caused action of God, and to know what His purpose was in that action, is to claim to be a prophet.
All of the things that most Christians are saying about our country's moral degeneration, it's lack of character, and more is true. But our country is not Israel, and all of the Bible quotes the "God's Judgement" folks are using pertain specifically to Israel.
There are many nations in the world that are much more degenerate than America, and suffering the natural consequences of that degeneracy. America, too, suffers from the extent to which the truth has been rejected by its citizens.
All of the answers you gave, however, would only apply if one accepts the view, the terrorist hijackings and attack on the WTC were the direct judgement of God on America. In fact, they were the result of a world dominated by irrationality and a decadent society that has become complacent in its prosperity and peace.
This is the Biblical interpretation of the terrible events of this past week. There is no need to go beyond the fact that you cannot do wrong and get away with it, because that is how God has set this world up. Certainly, innocent people suffer as the result of the actions of those who are not innocent, just as many children suffer, because their parents are alcoholics or drug addicts. That does not mean that suffering is the judgement of God. It means you cannot defy the truth and get away with it.
2Thessalonians 2:10 ... they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
(Surprised?) Hank
God said NO YOU WONT. Did satan ask for God's permission to rebel, and destroy 1/3 of the heavenly hosts with his rebellion... NO. Looks like Satan historically does things all the time that God does not give him permission to do.
God permits evil things because he HAS to. Once freewill was given, by God, it could not be taken back.
God is not duplicitous like people. Folks who continually mind-meld themselves into separating the "perfect" and "permissive" will of God, are deluding themselves into worshpping a "schitzophrenic" God, made in their own image, via the power of religious insanity and scriptural head-games of twister.
Right hand red... left hand yellow... left foot blue, head up the kazoo... nutcases.
Satan is God's enemy. EVERY THING he does is contrary to the will of God. Jesus said the theif has come to kill, steal and destroy ... I have come that they might have life more abundantly. Pretty damned clear if you ask me.
I guess Jesus was mistaken in his perceptions?
ALL other scriptures should be measured in the context of what Jesus taught, for those who CLAIM to be Christians.
EVERY time Satan came to Jesus, Jesus REBELLED against his temptations, suggestions and lies. FATHER-God cannot be tempted by the DEVIL. The devil and the Father are never "one" in purpose... EVERY time Jesus found a demon or a "devil" as most bibles call them... HE cast it/them out. Only one time did I see them ask permission of Him for anything... the possesion of the swine in the madman of gadara incident.
Part of our problem in America is that we have Christians worshipping as God, a diety that acts more like the devil... and honoring what the devil does, as if it comes from the Father of lights with whom, we are told there is, not one fleeting shadow of darkness, or variation of darkness.
Attributing Satan's works to God... is dangerous territory. God MAY turn what was intended for evil to our good. Shoring up our borders, and going after religious extremists that hate and commit murder are two good things that might come of this. But that in no way ties Him to the evil. Don't even imply He did or permitted such a thing. Such is considereb by many to be blasphemy... and dangerous beyond imagining.
Don't do it.
God did not cause it. He allowed it to happen. I was not punishment. It was a slight withdrawal of his protective hand. He does not let these things happen without purpose.
If you have children or pets you have done the same thing as God on a smaller scale. There has been a danger present that you decided not to protect your children from.
In order to teach him/her a valuable lesson, you purposely refrained from protecting them in order to strengthen or teach them something very important. To help them survive and grow you allowed hurt to enter into their lives even though you could have prevented it, you just chose not to. The only difference here is we are talking about death which is the ultimate boo boo for the physical self.
I think God looks at death differently. He knows we all will die, the question for us (not him) is when. If it will save 280,000,000 people or compel a nation to repent or if it will save us from more terrorist attacks causing even more suffering, who is to say what he may permit? Would he allow us to die a day, a week, or a year earlier?
Of course no one has the mind of God but he does reveal so many things in his word and in our lives so that we might understand.
I do believe God is more concerned with the living. His concern is with the pain and suffering caused by death not the death itself. He is also concerned and angry at the people that caused us this pain. He will heal the pain and avenged these deaths if we turn to him and ask him to. He will deliver us. I do believe God allowed this tragedy but that in no way means he made it happen. That's how I see it anyway.
"So this could not be a judgment for sin.
I don't believe it is either. But I do believe He removed His protection from this country. This left the door wide open for satan and his gang who produced all of this.
We need to ask the question
"Why God did this ? "
There can only be one answer. It is called "rebellion" and " sin "
What other reason could there be ?
God is Soverign. He did not wish it to happen. All He did was remove His protection. The devil satan and sin is responsible for the rest
Yow! When did that stop? Have you read Romans 1 lately, which is again happening? Revelation isn't quite finished yet either.
ie... Jesus cast out devils... they left the person's mind... but there were still "insanos" around the place... ie, the pharisees. Jesus was able to "hit the target" when He intended to. God smote the Egyptians SPECIFICALLY and delivered the righteous (slaves, israelis)... when the plagues hit Egyptians exclusively. David did not accidently hit Saul when he aimed for Goliath. DUH?!?!
God does not turn us over to Satan, like in tag team wrestling, so that Satan can work us over for a while... God is not Schitzophrenic, like these folks are. They seem to have created a god in their own image and likeness... duplicitous, conflicted, and terminally incongruent.
God is not confused. He speaks for Himself, and does not need a host of ayatollah's to explain it to us. Religion taken to extremes drives folks insane with its tensions and contradictions.
I believe there is a God. I believe Jesus is the Christ. Beyond the salvation God has promised, I cannot portend to KNOW anything else for sure... but I am pretty sure, the Devil is not God's enforcer. I always thougt that was the Holy Spirit's job. But maybe these folks think that the Holy Spirit is incapable of convicting the hearts of men about sin. Agnostic, Jew or Christian, I think, the Holy Spirit does his own dealing with our consciences... and I did not see any "help wanted" signs hanging on his chest the last time He dealt with me.
Some folks think they are better qualified to tell us what God wants, than God himself. They want to do HIS job for Him... and earn brownie points. They need to leave the heavy lifting to the ONE. And after about 5-6000 dead, I think we are definitely into the "heavy lifting" zone.
regarding judgement... there is only one DAY of the Lord, singular, in which HE does the judgment job... the height of technology and efficiency. I don't think He has "subcontracted" the judgement and destruction aspects of this famous "Day of the Lord" to the Satans of this world... or the religious ayatollah's who covet God's throne.
Funny that those who claim to revere Him most, would take His throne of truly "righteous" judgment so capriciously. Dangerous folks indeed!
Where is their "fear of the Lord?" I think they have substituted their human pride and arrogance for revering the Lord.
Dangerous territory for alleged Christians. Such behavior is so dangerous, my agnostic friends instinctively won't dare to try it out. Makes me wonder "Who are the real believers?" and "Who are the posers here?"
Interesting indeed, and chilling.
You say you know nothing else for sure. Why not? God tells you many things he wants you to know besides your salvation. Why does he fill pages and pages of his Bible telling you things? He talks very straightforwardly and simply. You should know many things about your life in Christ, about the world, about Satan, about what he desires from you. You should know all of this for certain, because He has told you. He doesn't want you ignorant of the things of God like the world that doesn't know Him. Yet, when believers tell things they know for sure because God said it, you attack them and go so far as to doubt they are even believers. He is in us, we are in Him; He gives us the Holy Spirit to teach us. God told us to study to know the word of God, to know Him.
I'm beginning to think mental illness is a bigger problem than we ever imagined.
It's like battered wife syndrome with some people.
And since the Holy Spirit (who was supposed to reprove us of sin whenever we fail) has apparently fallen asleep at the helm, God has hired the devil to fill in for Him too. In their book, somehow they twist it to where Jesus did not pay for the sins of our world fully on the Cross, and the Holy Spirit is incapable of doing his "convince and convict the whole world of its sins," job... so Satan needs to be enlisted?
God would LOVE to redeem mankind, but has to resort to allowing the Devil's tactics, to "seek and to save" that which is lost? I DON'T THINK SO!!
More and more, they sound like osami-to-me-a. Merciful Christ!!! Please forgive us for attributing YOUR works to Satan, and vice versa. Jesus saved thousands this week through the acts of wonderful heros. He saved our capitol through the heroism of a handful of citizen soldiers. That was God's work... and it was diametrically opposed to the works of darkness in progress. Light and darkness, according to scripture have no fellowship and Christ has NO concord (agreement, cooperation, or integration of work) with Belial (AKA: Satan, the Devil, that old Serpent).
That folks would substitute and confuse the acts of Belial, with the providence and will of God, shows that Satan has done a pretty good job of demonstrating to the World, that at least to these alleged believers, he is partner and shareholder in the Sovereignty of the Almighty... BLASPHEMY. We need God to save us from this crowd before they go whacko on the rest of us.
People who attribute evil to God, are cultic extremists. We need to reprove their gospel of hatred. YOU keep the faith. You are right.
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