[The_Reader_David]

bump

[The Wizard of Oz]

Ping.

[rwfromkansas]

As a Presbyterian who does not have time for this turn the other cheek crap, I say, flatten them.

[the808bass]

An AOG checking in with FAE.
Click Here

I know this is not the answer you're looking for, but it felt right.

[neutrino]

posts suggesting that the nuclear destruction of the capitals of nations supporting with the terror attack would probably suffice.

And well you should retract your position! The capitols are not nearly sufficient. The terrorist states have had their chance, and they celebrated America's pain. Make no mistake they will, if given the opportunity, murder millions more. It is not merely revenge that must be sought - no, it is a solemn duty to end this evil.

Is a Christian to be rendered impotent and supine when faced with pure and unrepentent evil? Surely not! For Christendom has fought to bring enlightenment to the world for millenia. Sometimes, force of arms is required. Now is one of those times.

Our duty - not only as Americans, but as Christians - is to stop this evil. There is but one way to do so - obliterate the governments and the supporters and defenders of those governments so this will never happen again.

The pictures below were first posted by dcbryan1:

Never forget! Never forgive!

[Brian Kopp DPM]

We face a foe whose mind is decidedly pre-modern and alien to what is normal to Christendom.... We face a foe who believes that divine help is at their back, and that death in the cause, particularly if one kills the enemy (even non-combattants defined to be enemies) is a great good. We face a foe willing to attack without defiance sent.

Sounds a bit like the Crusades, when they were first begun, to regain posession of the Holy Lands for the Christian Churches. Interestingly, the enemy has not changed. I'm curious to see if history judges our carrying out of this modern Crusade as harshly as it does the original.

[Migraine]

I admire that you wrestle with this dilemma. I, too, wish no slaughter. Human life is still sacred in our thinking -- especially the innocents.

Here is the solution and my rationale:

My solution, though radical, is very sane (as in M.A.D.=mutually assured destruction; it worked for 50 years). But I don't think it will even be considered, because it is deemed "unthinkable". Let me suggest that the "unthinkable" occurred on 9/11 and the taboo is already breached -- so far, it's been a one-way deal. Consider:

I am sorry to say this, but I find Islam to be friendly, cordial, hospitable -- to MUSLIMS ONLY. To the infidels (US), it is vindictive and barbaric. The terrorist attack we have just witnessed was SPAWNED in Islam. There is no shirking or refuting this. It is not only tolerated, it is encouraged, funded, and cheered (most of it secretly for fear of exposure of Muslims for the scurrilous beasts they are). To them, there is no concept of live and let live.

And, far from being anathema to the Koran, the terror we just witnessed could easily be rationalized by such words from the Koran, such as "Kill them wherever you find them; over such men we give you absolute authority"; "strike terror into the hearts of the enemies of Allah..."; "...take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends...whoever seeks their friendship shall become one of their number." I quote. So, don't excuse Islam. It is the milieu in which these bewildered barbarians, who worry because the world has passed their religion by, these anachronistic a$$holes, it is the milieu in which they have hatched terrorism. And, dammit, it works for them, because they are also patient. They will lose war after war, yet call themselves victors for a whole nother century because they downed the infidels' trade center.

It is a good thing I am not president. Since we have no country to fight back against, we are currently frustrated. Not me. I see that our enemy is Islam -- barbaric, intractable Islam, with its atavistic dreams and visions and its fatuous designs on world domination (what a joke!). If I were president (again, luckily, I'm not), my only debate would be between the following two options:
1) announce the need to evacuate Medina (second holiest site for Islam -- Mohammed's burial place [you see, he's still IN his grave, yet he's greater than Jesus? Go figure]) prior to our nuking it; OR
2) DON'T announce it; just nuke it and let the rags fall where they may.
In conjunction with that, since they've given us the excuse, have hated us, do hate us, and always will hate us anyway, have hated Israel, do hate Israel, and always will hate Israel anyway, I would also encourage Israel to take a couple thousand pounds of high explosives up to the #3 holy site -- the Dome of the Rock (aka the in-your-face-Jews mosque) and blow it to smithereens. Again, the tone for this has been set by Islam, as have the terms of the war. Since they hit us in a place calculated to disturb the very core of our belief system, we need to do the same to them -- hit them in a place that would be calculated to strike at a symbol of THEIR core beliefs and values, to produce the kind of distress and angst in their minds as we are suffering, and to give them pause concerning continuing to play this kind of hardball with so formidable a foe as the USA.

Wednesday, our President (whom I dearly love and support) declared war on terrorists, which is a bastardization of the term ("war"), since war is, by definition, a state of hostility between nations. WE SHOULD HAVE DECLARED WAR ON ISLAM, politically incorrect though it would be, because in this case, it is the closest we can come. In fact, everyone on "Talk Back Live" this afternoon declined to admit that Islam was the actual foe. But Farrakhan is right -- it IS a nation of Islam, and they stick together when it comes to Israel and the USA. The street celebrations and their subsequent efforts to minimize and prevent televising them should tell you that.
To any who would say, "Nuke Medina? Wow, that'll make the Muslims mad." I say, "Duh!", the already are mad, and they always will be!". To any who would say, "Wow! That'll make 'em REALLY do terrorism to us!" I say, "Duh!, they already are!" And then I say, "Muslims: better rethink that -- BECAUSE MECCA IS NEXT." In that sense, Mecca, then becomes hostage -- contingent on Islam's good behavior. And the perfect hostage it is, for without Mecca, they have no religion. It is truly a sine qua non that is without parallel in the religious world. Hardball. They threw the first pitch, high and tight. Now, it's our turn. And we'd better not throw some lousy knuckleball.

[Romulus]

I do not know what opinions the Greek Church may have of the events at Fatima (the same name as the daughter of the Prophet, BTW. Hmmm.) in 1917. But I think this element of the so-called "third secret", though particularly apt, has not received the attention it deserves:

"After the two parts which I have already explained, at the left of Our Lady and a little above, we saw an Angel with a flaming sword in his left hand; flashing, it gave out flames that looked as though they would set the world on fire; but they died out in contact with the splendor that Our Lady radiated towards him from her right hand: pointing to the earth with his right hand, the Angel cried out in a loud voice: 'Penance, Penance, Penance!'.

Because justification and grace can never proceed from evil, there is no way that the moral failures of the West can have justified the terrorists' acts of last week. Similarly, the horror of their crimes in no way cancels or justifies our pre-existing guilt in a way that would license us to wreak indiscriminate destruction on other innocents.

I have been reading Jeremiah this week. Jeremiah was not a team player. In the hour of crisis, Jeremiah declined to play the booster. He did not preach "Don't worry; be happy"; instead he condemned the sinful ways of God's people, and was for his trouble was deemed a traitor. Even though the Lord eventually saw to the destruction of Babylon, in his wisdom and providence he did not forbear first to employ them as a chastisement to a people gone astray. Looking at this week's pictures of a desolate lower Manhattan, I could not dismiss from my mind the biblical Lamentation for the desolate Jerusalem.

[okie_tech]

I firmly believe that they nuclear option is/was the only option and it is apparent that Bush Lite doesn't have the intestinal fortitude to do what is required. But not just a capital, Afganistan should have been made to disappear back on Sept. 11, and bombing runs should have been made on terrorist camps and facilities in all other Arab countries on the 12th. Fear and terror should have been struck into their hearts such that no one would ever try this sort of thing again. We remember Carthage to this day, 2000 years from now the world should remember Kabul and only speak about it in hushed tones and whispers.

[etcetera]

I applaud your soul searching and must say that you are not alone. It appears that there is a growing sense in this nation and around the world that it would be a great travesty to hold all Muslims accountable for this disaster.

It's becoming apparent that Muslims and their governments around the world are being held hostage by Radical Islam. While there may be cause for resenting the U.S. and it's allies, most Muslims would rather seek peaceful redress of grievances through negotiation and compromise.

Unfortunately, Muslim countries around the world have been unable to successfully control their radical fringe. Some have lent govenment support and encouragement to radicals with deadly consequences, both to their "enemies" and their own populaces.

I don't know the answer to our dilemma. There is great difficulty in striking just the Radicals without hurting innocents. Whatever action our government chooses, I sincerely hope that it is done with a desire for justice and is not just an angry elephant stamping on an ant hill .

[Humidston]

.....The first thing one should do, IMHO, is get down on our knees and confess our sins. America is still a Godly nation? America is still beloved in God's eyes? True, we're better than all the rest, but we have a whole lot of improving to do! We should start with ourselves.

II Chronicles 7:14

[don-o]

One of my fellow Orthodox Christian Freepers rebuked me privately (as well he should) and asked me to retract my call. Moved by this, and by two sermons by my bishop, I do so now.

It takes courage and humility to do such anytime, and especially on this forum. Axios, David.

I was eaten up with anger for the first 24 hours. And I said some things to people that I still need to retract. I just did not post.

I was pointed out to me today, as I confessed my own hatred and anger, that it is easy to beat the war drums, and wrap ones passions in the flag. It is hard to embrace the Cross, because there is suffering there. There is self denial there. There is unfathomable love there. There is true victory there.

I was challenged by a mention of what a certain minister had counselled, which was told as "Pray, then go kill people." Question was asked, "Would Jesus have ever said such a thing?"

I am posting before I read a single response, as I am moved by The Reader David's righteous retraction. I will be interested to see if we can get a decent dialogue going on the proper Christian response in the present emergency.

[aposiopetic]

I don't know the appropriate measures for opposing this foe, but we can start (as I know you do) with prayer and fasting.To address the larger issue which you implicitly raise, we must ask ourselves why we oppose this foe. I believe that, if we must act, we must do so to deprive the foe of the ready capacity to harm innocents. I say the 'ready' capacity because the foe will always, at least in the near term, be able to harm innocents in some ways. But we should (dare I say must? might it indeed be our duty to?) make it more difficult for the foe to cause such harm.

[The_Reader_David]

Sorry to run from my own thread, but I must attend to family matters. I will look in when I may.

On Friday, our cathedral prayed a service of Orthodox Christian prayers for a nation at war. We prayed the Trisagion Prayers of Mercy for the victims on Saturday at our Mission.

Pray, fast, and repent of your sins.

[patent]

Our goal should not be vengance, but victory. We must fight a righteous war (the notion of a "holy" war is a Muslim lie), but how?

I agree with the above. Before we enter into calls for specific actions, especially calls for nuclear war, we need to know more than we do now. At least more than the public does. Even presuming present beliefs are accurate, and that its Bin Laden and the Taliban we want, nuking them is a bit extreme. There are so many in that country that want the Taliban out, and who are fighting to make that happen. To kill them along with the Taliban would be a grave injustice, and would only further the Satanic effects of the WTC bombing. To respond appropriately we need to keep in mind that Bin Laden and the Taliban aren’t our true enemies here, they only front for him. If they did this, they need to be removed as self defense for the next time, but we must be just in how we act.

Prayer and fasting are the order of the day. For the victims, our leaders, and our combatants. We have a hard road ahead, but Justice is patient. It will have its day.

*Those familiar with my posts on religious discussions will note that I have dropped my preference for refering to the adherents of the Papal Throne of Rome as "Latins". I will still not go so far as to give them their prefered title of "Catholics", since I profess the catholicity of the Holy Orthodox Church. I will, however, in the interest of the unity of Christendom in the face of the Islamic foe, use the generally used term applied to them by Christians of other confessions.

Hey, it’s a good start!

Dominus Vobiscum

patent  +AMDG

[Wm Bach]

How many more innocents will be targeted SPECIFICALLY if we do not strike back even at the risk of killing innocents accidentally?

Inaction is the greatest evil. We target the enemy as best we can and strike back intelligently, mercilessly, and completely. You have to break a few eggs to make an omelet.

[Terriergal]

So... you're recanting... but you're not recanting?

[Terriergal]

I know Centurion2000 has an essay entitled "The Christian at War" and I have it somewhere, if anyone is interested. Please freepmail me if you want a copy. The first half tends to be a bit rhetorical, but then he does eventually get to a rational support for his argument, I thought.

[Ted]

God is not a wimp, and created us in His image.

First, common sense, then Scripture - I told my 8th grade son who is attending a private Christian school to use this analogy - say you are married with wife/kids, home asleep at night and a druggie with a knife breaks into your home. The dog barks, druggie panics, kills your wife and holds a knife to your daughter's neck. You have a gun, do you shoot or do you turn the other cheek? These terrorists have killed our families and ARE still actively holding a knife to our family's necks. We have a gun...

Scripture - Jesus said wipe the dust of those cities off your feet - they that reject the gospel God gives over to a reprobate mind (out of a tough Love, in hopes that they in their desperation will turn to Him. He does not force us to turn to Him). More to the point, Paul teaches that those who reject the law of Grace and subject themselves to the law of sin and death fall under the judgement of the law of sin and death - an eye for an eye. If Christians en masse continue to apply incorrect Scripture to this situation we will lose a golden opportunity to win many thousands of people to the Lord. The scriptures do teach to forgive, to turn the other cheek, to pray for your enemy, but they also teach about those with a reprobate mind and those who reject the gospel - which these terrorists have obviously done. Read your WHOLE Bible!...

[RaceBannon]

Muslims NEVER apologize for their faith, especially when they call for Jihad on Jews or Christians. We should NEVER apologize for our faith when it calls for peace with our neighbors, but...

WE SHOULD NEVER APOLOGIZE WHEN WE RECOGNIZE THAT ANOTHER'S FAITH IS WHAT DRIVES THEM TO MURDER,

WE SHOULD NEVER APOLOGIZE WHEN WE RECOGNIZE THAT ANOTHER'S FAITH DRIVES THEM TO CONDEMN US AND CALL FOR OUR DEATHS

WE SHOULD ALWAYS REPENT AND CALL ON GOD IN FEAR TO PROTECT US, BUT WE SHOULD HAVE OUR KNIVES SHARP AND OUR WEAPONS OILED SO WHEN WE GO INTO BATTLE, WE ARE PREPARED.

WHEN THE FARMER CALLS ON GOD FOR RAIN, HE IS STILL EXPECTED TO SOW SEED, PLOW THE FIELD, PLUCK WEEDS, AND HARVEST THE CROP.

WHEN WE CALL ON GOD TO DEFEND US AGAINST TERRORISTS, WE MUST BE READY WITH VIGILANCE, WITH ARMS, AND WITH COURAGE TO FACE THE ENEMY UNTIL THEY ARE VANQUISHED.

None of what I just said is against Scripture. These people have declared war against us because we support Israel. It is they who shoot us, it is they who bomb school buses in Israel, it is they who bomb stores in Israel, and now, it is they who fly airplanes into the WTC to try to kill us here.

THE BATTLE HAS ALREADY BEGUN. IF WE SIT AROUND THE CAMPFIRE AND SING KUM-BAY-YAH WITH THE TERRORISTS, WE ARE ASKING TO BE DESTROYED. THIS IS THE TIME TO FIGHT, FOR YOUR FAMILIES, FOR YOUR NEIGHBORS, AND FOR YOURSELVES.

This battle is no longer on foreign shores, it is right here in America!! WAKE UP!!!!