Posted on 09/16/2001 10:01:11 AM PDT by Keyes For President
I realize that my reply was brief, so to clarify...I have no problem with Jesus. I have a problem with people who blame people for their own deaths without even having met them. Or even more, blame a nation for the deaths of people whom they have not met, then say "The Lord told you so."
Faith is a personal matter. Pray to God if you need forgiveness. Lock your door and close the curtains, then pray to God for America if you think it needs forgiveness. But go preaching this to the victims' families in Manhattan today if you'd like to become a martyr.
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile-- the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?" Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: "Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world." Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says, "I will make you envious by those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding." And Isaiah boldly says, "I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me." But concerning Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people." (NIV)
Now try actually reading the text. Jesus specifically declares that those who died are no more guilty than anyone else.
It could just as well have been you or I in those towers, so we should thank God for His grace and mercy and turn to Him before it's too late. Unless we repent, we too will all perish.
I will not thank God for his grace and mercy, and I suppose nor would the families of those who died. Life was taken. I can live with the 'Free Will' of men, but not the actions of angry men being attributed to God.
Your faith may sustain you during this time, and that's laudable. To attribute the deaths of others for a supposed lack of faith, of either them or America, is as despicable as the terrorists' actions.
Respond to the last sentence with a judgement of Good or Evil next to the names of each known victim. Or, respond with a list of the names of every American who isn't 'righteous' so that they may know and repent their ways.
First of all, I reject the notion that hunting down and destroying the men who did this is "twitting" God--it is not for nothing that our leaders wear the sword. That being said, I agree that repentance is needed and this is a wake-up call for America. Therefore, the answer is that it is a better response--indeed, the only rational and righteous response--to both wage war against the murderers who did this and to get on our collective knees and repent before God for our sins.
Yours in Truth,
What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."
Rom 3:9-12(NIV)
But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.
Rom 3:21-28(NIV)
I will not thank God for his grace and mercy, and I suppose nor would the families of those who died.
Have mercy on me, O God, according to your unfailing love; according to your great compassion blot out my transgressions. Wash away all my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin.
For I know my transgressions, and my sin is always before me. Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you are proved right when you speak and justified when you judge. Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. Surely you desire truth in the inner parts; you teach me wisdom in the inmost place.
Cleanse me with hyssop, and I will be clean; wash me, and I will be whiter than snow. Let me hear joy and gladness; let the bones you have crushed rejoice. Hide your face from my sins and blot out all my iniquity.
Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me. Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of your salvation and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me.
Then I will teach transgressors your ways, and sinners will turn back to you. Save me from bloodguilt, O God, the God who saves me, and my tongue will sing of your righteousness. O Lord, open my lips, and my mouth will declare your praise. You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.
Ps 51:1-18(NIV)
I don't believe Dan was referring to hunting down and destroying the terrorists as "twitting" God. He was referring to those who scoff at the truth that God judges sin.
You are correct that the Bible teaches that the governmemt does not bear the sword in vain. Nations are given the authority to wage war to defend it's citizens.
That being said, I agree that repentance is needed and this is a wake-up call for America. Therefore, the answer is that it is a better response--indeed, the only rational and righteous response--to both wage war against the murderers who did this and to get on our collective knees and repent before God for our sins.
Amen, brother!
In Christ,
In Christ,
What a positively Muslim thing to say ;-)
If that's the case, my apologies for misunderstanding, Dan. And I would agree with you on that.
Yours in Truth,
As someone recently stated:
"In this moment, we would do well to remember that there is a God. We are not Him, and neither are the terrorist-murderers who are assaulting us. With our prayers, with our hearts and with all our faithfulness, we should commit both will and judgment to the Lord. Let us trust in Him so that, in this time of tragedy and trial, conscience will not falter, nor prudent courage fail. Let us pray that in His mercy, He will bless America beyond all deserving, as we know and believe He seeks to bless all humanity."
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Thes 4:16(KJV)
The Bible doesn't say what that shout will be, but as you say, perhaps it will be something like "Shut Up!" I have imagined it would be something like, "Enough!"
In Christ,
To the souls which are faithful to Him, God promises a glorious victory over the powers of the world and of hell.
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If the divine action is hidden here below under the appearance of weakness, it is in order to increase the merit of souls which are faithful to it; but its triumph is none the less certain.
The history of the world from the beginning is but the history of the struggle between the powers of the world, and of hell, against the souls which are humbly devoted to the divine action. In this struggle all the advantage seems to be on the side of pride, yet the victory always remains with humility. The image of the world is always presented to our eyes as a statue of gold, brass, iron, and clay. This mystery of iniquity, shown in a dream to Nabuchodonosor, is nothing but a confused medley of all the actions, interior and exterior, of the children of darkness. This is also typified by the beast coming out of the pit to make war, from the beginning of time, against the interior and spiritual life of man. All that takes place in our days in the consequence of this war. Monster follows monster out of the pit, which swallows, and vomits them forth again amidst incessant clouds of smoke. The combat between St. Michael and Lucifer, that began in Heaven, still continues. The heart of this once magnificent angel, has become, through envy, an inexhaustible abyss of every kind of evil. He made angel revolt against angel in Heaven, and from the creation of the world his whole energy is exerted to make more criminals among men to fill the ranks of those who have been swallowed up in the pit. Lucifer is the chief of those who refuse obedience to the Almighty. This mystery of iniquity is the very inversion of the order of God; it is the order, or rather, the disorder of the devil.
This disorder is a mystery because, under a false appearance of good, it hides irremediable and infinite evil. Every wicked man, who, from the time of Cain, up to the present moment, has declared war against God, has outwardly been great and powerful, making a great stir in the world, and being worshiped by all. But this outward semblance is a mystery. In reality they are beasts which have ascended from the pit one after another to overthrow the order of God. But this order, which is another mystery, has always opposed to them really great and powerful men who have dealt these monsters a mortal wound. As fast as hell vomits them forth, Heaven at the same time creates fresh heroes to combat them. Ancient history, sacred and profane, is but a record of this war. The order of God has ever remained victorious and those who have ranged themselves on the side of God have shared His triumph, and are happy for all eternity. Injustice has never been able to protect deserters. It can reward them only by death, an eternal death.
Those who practise iniquity imagine themselves invincible. O God! who can resist You? If a single soul has the whole world and all hell against it, it need have no fear if, by abandonment, it takes its stand on the side of God and His order.
The monstrous spectacle of wickedness armed with so much power, the head of gold, the body of silver, brass, and iron, is nothing more than the image of clay; a small stone cast at it will scatter it to the four winds of Heaven.
How wonderfully has the Holy Spirit illustrated the centuries of the world! So many startling revelations! so many renowned heroes following each other like so many brilliant stars! So many wonderful events!
All this is like the dream of Nabuchodonosor, forgotten on awaking, however terrible the impression it made at the time.
All these monsters only come into the world to exercise the courage of the children of God, and if these are well trained, God gives them the pleasure of slaying the monsters, and sends fresh athletes into the arena.
And this life is a spectacle to angels, causing continual joy in Heaven, work for saints on earth, and confusion to the devils in hell.
So all that is opposed to the order of God renders it only the more to be adored. All workers of iniquity are slaves of justice, and the divine action builds the heavenly Jerusalem on the ruins of Babylon
I am sure that the 5,000 families who lost loved ones will be comforted by that notion. As for your comments about sin, there were little children in the buildings and on the plane. What sins did they commit?
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