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To: x
One could find quotes in the Bible that express similar ideas.

It would be safe to say that virtually no Christian of today, at least, holds any Jihadish doctrine, where man has to coerce man into allegiance to their faith. The Catholic Church has disavowed their Inquisition; the Orthodox Church never believed in it; and it is not found in the New Testament, which is the basis of the Protestant denominations, except possibly for the period after Christ returns (and so far He hasn't).

The story is a bit different with some of the extreme forms of Judaism. The Old Testament/Torah speaks of Jewish conquests of the future for the Land of Israel, and some Jews think that is for right now while others say no, wait for the Messiah who is yet to come. However that is pretty much limited to Israeli-Arab fighting in the Middle East and internecine feuds within Judaism (it could be questioned whether the USS Liberty incident with America also reflected that spirit, but that's a debate for another day).

Islam has a Jihad for here and now hardcoded into their Koran.

57 posted on 09/16/2001 2:26:31 AM PDT by drlevy88
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To: x
P.S. in the case of Protestant Christianity, even after the return of Christ, there never is a coercion of faith, though there is a cleanout of nonbelievers through an agency which is not completly specified, though it includes angels, under authority of Christ.
58 posted on 09/16/2001 2:30:13 AM PDT by drlevy88
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To: drlevy88 , Centurion 2000, Prodigal Daughter, Republic of Texas
It would be safe to say that virtually no Christian of today, at least, holds any Jihadish doctrine, where man has to coerce man into allegiance to their faith.

I don't have any quarrel with what you say, though I'd have to read the Koran, before I'd come to a final judgement about its teaching. And I don't defend what's done in most Islamic countries today. I was simply pointing out that other scriptures have passages that moderns would consider repellent. Citing ten carefully selected passages from a very large book doesn't necessarily convey the essence of the whole book.

It would take a lot of knowledge to interpret these passages, and the same is true of Bible passages. Some of them deal with pagan tribes, and recommend that Muslims deal with these tribes harshly, as the Israelites dealt with the Canaanites, or other peoples with gods at war have dealt with each other. Some definitely do refer to Jews and Christians, and aren't totally at odds with the fierce spirit of competition Jews and Christians went through in the early days of the Church and afterwards. Some may refer to unbelievers within Islam. The context isn't made clear by this translation or others.

In general, there are analogues for the passages cited in Exodus and Numbers, where the invasion of Canaan is ordered and executed and in Deuteronomy. Some of the sites I linked to in the previous posts will give more precise citations. Anyone interested could take the time to look through them. A personal favorite is Moses's words in Numbers 31:17-18: "Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." Christianity is a more individualistic faith, but even within it there are commands to cut oneself off from unbelieving relatives.

As to whether the Bible commands that you can "lie, cheat, steal rape and murder the infidels," you might try Deuteronomy 7:1-5, Exodus 20:5, Deuteronomy 13:6-10, Exodus 32:27-29, Numbers 33:55-56, Deuteronomy 7:1-2 or Numbers 25:1-9 for a start. But where does it say in the Koran that you can do these things? I can't say that it doesn't. It does advocate severity with unbelievers -- as does the Bible -- but you'd have to really do some research before you could positively assert that the Koran does allow believers to "lie, cheat, steal rape and murder the infidels." My point isn't that the Koran doesn't advocate harsh treatment of unbelievers in some passages, or that Muslims don't treat unbelievers harshly today. It's that one could find similar passages in other scriptures.

Whether or not such behavior is "hard-coded" into the Koran in a way that it isn't in the Bible is worthy of discussion, but some of the claims made here about the Koran are also true of other holy books. If Christianity or Judaism have outgrown them that's all to the good. If Islam hasn't there's a problem, but selectively quoting some passages from the Koran to make broad claims about Islam doesn't really get at the problem.

127 posted on 09/16/2001 11:44:48 AM PDT by x
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