Posted on 09/12/2001 7:39:05 PM PDT by LarryLied
A family member today did not know who Charles Martel was. Did not know Islam once ruled Spain. Did not know the role of France in stopping Islam. Did not know about the fall or Constantinople or the siege of Vienna. This dear person did not know that Islam has been at war with the west for centuries. She honestly thought what we saw this week was just a "visual" to get our attention , play to their people and that this would be the end of it. She is a good person. I am a dilettante when it comes to history. I know enough proven wrong more often than right .
But I know we have experts here. So...what about the history of this conflict? Let's tell people it did not start with last Tuesday, it did not start with, as Netanyahu said this evening, America supporting Israel. The conflict is far deeper than that.
Your screen name leads me to believe you can do better than that.
:-)
Come on..someone help me. I know there are freeper experts out there. Or are you all waiting for me or someone else to make a historical illiterate statement first?
Think we got coffee out of the deal. They got pushed back of course.
Charles Martel had called together his warriors from every part of his dominion, and, at the head of such an army as had hardly ever been seen in France, crossed the Loire, probably at Orleans, and, being joined by the remains of the army of Aquitaine, came in sight of the Arabs in the month of October, 732.The Saracens seem to have been aware of the terrible enemy they were now to encounter, and for the first time these formidable conquerors hesitated.
The two armies remained in presence during seven days before either ventured to begin the attack; but at length the signal for battle was given by Abdalrahman, and the immense mass of the Saracen army rushed with fury on the Franks.
But the heavy line of the Northern warriors remained like a rock, and the Saracens, during nearly the whole day, expended their strength in vain attempts to make an impression upon them. At length, about four o'clock in the afternoon, when Abdalrahman was preparing for a new and desperate attempt to break the line of the Franks, a terrible clamor was heard in the rear of the Saracens.
It was King Eude, who, with his Aquitanians, had attacked their camp, and a great part of the Saracen army rushed tumultuously from the field to protect their plunder.
In this moment of confusion the line of the Franks advanced, and, sweeping the field before it, carried fearful slaughter amongst the enemy. Abdalrahman made desperate efforts to rally his troops, but when he himself, with the bravest of his officers, fell beneath the swords of the Christians, all order disappeared, and the remains of his army sought refuge in their immense camp, from which Eude and his Aquitanians had been repulsed.
It was now late, and Charles, unwilling to risk an attack on the camp in the dark, withdrew his army, and passed the night in the plain, expecting to renew the battle in the morning.
Accordingly, when daylight came, the Franks drew up in order of battle, but no enemy appeared; and when at last they ventured to approach the Saracen camp, they found it empty. The invaders had taken advantage of the night to begin their retreat, and were already on their way back to Spain, leaving their immense plunder behind to fall into the hands of the Franks.
This was the celebrated battle of Tours, in which vast numbers of the Saracens were slain, and only fifteen hundred of the Franks. Charles received the surname of Martel (the Hammer) in consequence of this victory.
We must have been allied to Islam sometime for something more than mutual convenience. But I can't think of any. Anyone know more?
Hee...hee....
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If we go into Afghanastan on the ground the same thing will happen to us that happened to the Soviets. We'll get murderized. Particularly with our new woman's army of one. Soviet soldiers were mutininy and deserting rather than being sent there.
"Only three times during the great Arab conquest were the Moslems stopped. The first was at Constantinople in 718. The Byzantines held their capital city because of it's superb defensive location, enormous walls, and because of the invention of Greek fire. This was a compound including oil, which burned on water and was virtually inextinguishable. The Moslems were never able to learn how to put it out.
The second was the dramatic stand by the Spaniards at Covadonga. The Moslems had swept across Spain. The Visigoth king, Roderic, was dead. The few remaining noblemen retreated to the Asturias mountains and elected Pelayo as their king. They gathered in 718; the battle would be fought in 722. As the Moslems prepared their attack, Bishop Oppas came to Pelayo to persuade him to surrender to avoid further bloodshed: 'You know how all the armies of the Goths united were not able to resist the pressure of the Saracens (Moslems); how then can you hold out in this mountain? Hear my council, give of your undertaking, and you will gain much benefit by the side of the Moors (Moslems).'
But Pelayo replied: 'Have you not read in Holy Scripture that the Church of the Lord is like a grain of mustard seed which, small as it is, through the loving kindness of God, grows more than any other seed?' The Bishop answered: 'Truly, so it is written.' And Pelayo said: 'Our hope is in Christ; this little mountain will be the salvation of Spain and of the Gothic people; the loving kindness of Christ will free us from the multitude.'
The Moslems attacked; Pelayo and his Spaniards resisted. The Christians won the battle of Covadonga, and the Moslems turned away. The Moslem general dismissed the Spaniards with the contemptuous words: 'What are thirty barbarians perched on a rock? They will inevitably die.' His words can be contrasted to Pelayo's: 'This little mountain will be the salvation of Spain and of the Gothic people; The mercy of Christ will liberate us from this multitude.' Who was right? At present there are about 300,000,000 Hispanic Catholics in the world; Spain was the only country once conquered by the Moslems to be eventually restored to Christianity. The 'thirty barbarians perched on a rock' were indeed the beginning of the 'salvation of Spain.' Christ's mercy did indeed liberate his people."
We won't do that and even if we did, we would do OK. The Soviets got beat there because of us. CIA did a great job. Too great in a way. The CIA tactic was to put the most high-tech stuff we had in the arms of "the shooters." We really did pick the crazies to support. It worked but it has come back to haunt us.
This time, they won't have that kind of support.
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Ollie North and company armed them with anti-helicopter missiles. Now they have their own. Other than nuclear bombs, armored helicopters are the only thing employable in that terrain.
The other thing that defeated the Societs was the Afgan's well know practice of not keeping prisoners. They's send prisoners back to their own army. But only after giving them a shirtwaist. They'd skin prisoners from the beltline to the neck, then send them back to the barracks. Soviet solders refused to leave their encampments.
About three or four doses of that would end our ground war.
exactly
and in another way -- most of the mujahadeen we trained all too well in a good cause have long since fanned out all over the moslem world and have been busy training the very people we now confront
unfortunately, even if they've used up most of the high tech stuff we supplied to them years ago, they have the funding to buy more, and they haven't forgotten how to use it
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