An echo from Christendom's past

Butler's Lives of the Saints | 9/12/01

[Diago]

bump

[Havoc]

Your twisted version of history is so far removed from reality that debate appears impossible. You consider yourself to be the final arbiter of truth. In that case you will always "win" the "argument". Good luck, now and on Judgment Day. You'll need it.

Have you read the Muslim histories? Yes or no.

Have you read the subject matter of the decretals? Yes or no.

Thought so. When you have, then you have ground to stand on. So far, ya'll seem to want to say whatever you wish and then demand documentation for anything that doesn't line up with your version of things. The Muslim Histories are in print in Bookstores and Libraries. And they give you guys a rather serious black eye - and substantially because the Muslims have no real reason to give more than the facts. They won. They didn't have to really break too much of a sweat in the long run; but, they won. And they were ultimately curious about the crusaders sacking towns, looting churches and even about Constantinople. When the Crusaders didn't get paid the promised vast treasures, they sacked Constantinople. Freeing "Christendome" is the excuse applied to the crusades - it was ultimately nothing more than a campaign of looting and robbing Christians and Jews of Christian and Jewish artifacts and of their money. When the money and artifacts ran out and the Muslims had enough, the Crusaders went home. The events betray the mindset. Or can you tell us all what purpose was served in slaying 3000 Christians on one day after capturing their City? The Muslims were extremely puzzled over this.

I have no interest in winning. I have interest in getting people to think and in God winning ultimately. I am comfortable in my stance before God. I know what I have to do and I do it. I'm Christian. I don't have anything to sell anyone and no agenda to push no particular denomination to point anyone to. I just point people to God and truth. I know that confuses people; but, them's the facts folks. My life isn't impacted one way or the other if you cover your ears and yell "i can't hear you." You've been exposed to the truth - which makes you responsible for it. And that's the way I approach all truth - be it History or the Bible. If you've heard it and reject it, that's your problem.

[Diva]

>There are grown ups to talk to elsewhere. Too many topics to sit and worry about this one. I made my point.<

Aww Havoc, does this mean you are going? Paleyo, Champion, guys...there is no argument you could make, or for that matter Martin Luther (if he were here), that would sway Havoc from his crusade. I've decided the best thing to do for Havoc is to have some Masses said for his soul. I will light a candle and say some prayers to the Blessed Mother as well for her intercession on his behalf. God bless you Havoc.

[Havoc]

I've decided the best thing to do for Havoc is to have some Masses said for his soul. I will light a candle and say some prayers to the Blessed Mother as well for her intercession on his behalf. God bless you Havoc.

Thank you, No. You can Pray directly to God on my behalf, if you wish. But, God and I are on good terms. I appreciate your thought, misguided though it might be. You need to pray to God not mary. Mary can do nothing. So don't waste your time; put it to good use by going to God. If you're words betray true intent, you'll do as I request. Otherwise it's fluff. As you're another newcomer, you'll go on my prayer list. Ya'll have fun.

[Havoc]

Yes and yes as a matter of fact.

Yes, what. Yes you've read the Muslim Histories? Yes you've read the Histories of the decretals? (don't tell me you read the Catholic Encyclopedia and stopped there - lol.) Who's compilation of the Muslim history of the Crusades did you read - Catholic edition or standard edition? And did you weigh it against Historic acounts or the Catholic account? You see, I'm used to this stuff. These are the kind of questions always put to me and answers *demanded*. I won't demand, I'll simply ask. If you can answer them, I'll be pleasantly surprised. Oh, and, can you list for me the things that are included in the isidorian decretals (not a yes/no, gimme the list if you would).

If you guys want to play scholarship games, I've learned them from you. Let's see what you have. Convince me.

[LadyDoc]

Mary Veneration involves sacrifice of prayer, of song, etc. As such it is worship

So if I sing a lullaby to my child, I am worshipping her. If I ask a neighbor to pray for me, I am worshipping her. ("holy Mary...pray for us sinners...)

Actually, to Catholics, worship is the sacrifice of the Mass, which is a mirror of both the sacrifice in the Temple and the Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross.

Singing, praising, and "praying" (i.e. asking a person to intercede for us to God) is not the same thing or at the same level as worship

Of course, some people like Jehovah Witnesses won't say the pledge of alliegence, and other churches won't allow their members to have photos of Jesus or even wear the cross, fearing idolatry.

But most of us recognize the difference. You might not like it, but it IS different.

[LadyDoc]

You need to pray to God not mary. Mary can do nothing,,,,As you're another newcomer, you'll go on my prayer list

Please put me on your prayer list.

Oops. I've just prayed to you like I pray to Mary when I ask her to pray for me. And if Mary can do nothing, you are implying your own prayers can do nothing.(theoretically true: neither of you can do anything, but your prayers to God can make a big difference)

I think the problem is that we are using different definitions of the word "pray". In past times, the word was used for anyone who asked a favor (Pray tell me sir is a frequent phrase in Shakespeare, for example).

You are using the word "pray" as "interceeding to the Lord high God", implying worship. Catholics and Orthodox Christians don't do this, and we recognize the difference between worship of the Lord and talking to those who have gone before us (the Cloud of witnesses in Hebrew).

[Havoc]

Oops. I've just prayed to you like I pray to Mary when I ask her to pray for me.

Actually, no - you haven't. Asking me is asking a living breathing individual. Asking Mary is a request of a person that has passed on. As such it falls into the category of attempting to commune with the dead - which is Outlawe in the OT. The Jews know this all too well. It seems Christians know this too. But, Catholics seem to completely ignore it in faver of the Marian philosophies.

And no problem - I'll add you to my prayer list to.

[Havoc]

Uh, in the case of your baby, you aren't making a statue of the baby (graven image), then singing to the statue, or saying prayers to a dead baby through the statue or otherwise (noting that your baby hasn't passed whereas Mary Has), or offering cakes to it as early Catholics did, etc. We know the cakes were done away with because it was too blatent. Change the name of the statues to ISIS and nothing has changed. All of what is done before a statue of Mary, or of Peter or Paul etc. if done before a Statue of Isis would be idolatry. The name change does not designate a difference in what the deed is.

Of course, some people like Jehovah Witnesses won't say the pledge of alliegence, and other churches won't allow their members to have photos of Jesus or even wear the cross, fearing idolatry.

'Jehovah's Witnesses' follow their own philosophies. They have a whole host of different problems because their philosophies lead them in different directions than yours lead you. They too tend to defend their philosophies more staunchly than the Bible. And they too want to blame the Bible for what they believe. But what they believe isn't in the Bible. Just as your belief about Mary isn't in the Bible. The Bible refutes the beliefs roundly. Doesn't matter to either camp because the Bible isn't as important to either as the belief.

[Uri’el-2012]

campion, all who follow Mary

John 10:9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. [Or
kept safe] He will come in and go out, and find pasture.

John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No-one
comes to the Father except through me.

Tehillim (Psalm) 119:105 Your Word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path.

XeniaSt

[Havoc]

Thank you Xenia. I thought this thread was going to be a contrast between the crusades and the modern terrorist threat which it's title references and topic point to. Seems it's just another thread about Mariology. I'm done with it. If they want to argue religion, they can go to the Christian Chronicles. I thought this was a history topic. But no one here is talking serious history.

[Uri’el-2012]

Praise His Holy Name

[Havoc]

AMEN!

[537 Votes]

The more I think about this, the more I am coming to the conclusion we are heading toward another Crusades, a holy war. This was not an attack on America, but on Western Civilization. The radical Moslems will not stop until we are utterly destroyed. They must be stopped. We must pray, and fight.

We must defend, and we must seek justice against murderers.

But as for Islam itself, it lost its soul last Tuesday. If we show kindness to the Arabs -- while seeking justice against the Taliban -- we will in effect be pouring burning coals upon their consciences.

Leave the rubble of the WTC as it stands, and put a guard rail around it, and a plaque that reads: THE GLORY OF ISLAM.