Believed to Be Safe, the Towers Proved Vulnerable to the Intense Heat of a Jet Fuel Fire [NYT]

The NY Times | 9/12/01 | James Glanz

[summer]

Jim, Thank you so very much for your informative post #8. You have added so much to this thread's discussion.

Sincerely,
summer

[summer]

Fascinating info in your post #9 -- thanks for sharing it.

[summer]

Re your post #17

Thank you so much for adding a new link with different information, to genuinely add to this discussion.

Sincerely, summer

[BostonGuy]

It is my opinion that the controlled demolition effect may have even been unintentional; they knew they would mortally wound the structures for the purpose of human habitation simply through the fire, and there would really be no point in going any further.

Agreed. If they had the means to bomb, I would think it more likely that they would have bombed other buildings after the plane crashes - *that's* your diversion/follow-up, not two attacks on the same structure.

[summer]

For what it's worth, I was amazed at how similar the collapse was to photographs of controlled demolition

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Thank you SO much for pointing that out -- I could not figure out yesterday what exactly I recalled that seemed so similiar to me, visually. Yet, I was sure: I have seen something like that picture before....but where?

[summer]

- *that's* your diversion/follow-up

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Great point about what actually would have constituted a diversion. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this thread.

[Looking for Diogenes]

The outside steel columns would have been under compression, as you say. However, the columns were bound together with beams which criss-crossed the floors. Those beams would have been under tension.

[summer]

Re your post #3 and my reply #5 on this thread.

JeanS,

I am making a sincere and serious effort to have you banned from this forum for at least a year. Here is why, and I am publicly stating my reasons in an effort to disuade your other poster friends from agreeing to harass me pursuant to your obvious requests to them.

(1) I asked you nicely -- please do not write to me any more. I asked this of you after you attacked me on another thread.

(2) PhiKapMom asked you -- a lot more harshly than I did. Yet, even a request from me, and from PhiKapMom, did not stop you from subsequently posting to me on other threads.

(3) In reponse to your subsequent posts to me, I stated this to you, publicly: "Do not write to me again. EVER." Which of those words do you NOT understand?

(4) You STILL refused to leave me alone. Consequently, on another thread, I had to HIT THE ABUSE button, and the site DELETED your post to me. One would THINK YOU WOULD GET THE MESSAGE BY NOW. But - no.

(5) You CONTINUED to post to me on that OTHER THREAD AFTER THIS SITE DELETED YOUR POST TO ME.

(6) YOU NOW CONTINUE TO POST TO ME HERE, slyly pretending you are just being "nice" by adding a link to the same article I have already fully posted. What is WRONG with you?

(7) Now, on other threads, I have to put up with multiple baseless and pointless posts by your friends like "conservatism_is_compassion", who ADDRESSES his reply FOR NO REASON to BOTH YOU and ME. I want NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH YOU AND YOUR FRIENDS. I HAVE ASKED NICELY. SO HAVE OTHER PEOPLE.

(8) Not content to stop with pointlessly ADDRESSING a post to ME and YOU, your friend, at YOUR REQUEST, then writes ANOTHER baseless post to me on that other thread, and tries to BAIT ME INTO HARASSING HIM, by telling me how I always have "harassment" on my mind. What did this have to do with the TOPIC of that thread?

Please, someone, ban this woman for at least a year. She is like a cancer on me, and she is spreading what I believe is her harassment to me via others on this forum.

Thank you to whoever helps me out here.

[patent]

Can a stronger steel be used, or one more fire resistant? How about some combination of titanium/stronger steel for some of the beam and regular steel for others? I know its not possible to plan for everything, nor is it cost efficient. It seems as though these days it may be prudent to spend a little more if you want to build a landmark building.

patent

[summer]

To friends of JeanS, and other people like JeanS:

See my post #28 on this thread, FYI.

Sincerely,
summer

[summer]

See my post #28 on this thread. Thanks, summer

[summer]

Please see my post # 28 on this thread. I meant to include you in post #30. Thanks, and have a nice day. summer

[summer]

Also -- Please see my posts #30 and #32. BTW, I do not believe the people I posted to in #31 are a problem, but instead, have been misled by JeanS, who continues to be THE major problem for me at this time. Thanks.

[summer]

It seems as though these days it may be prudent to spend a little more if you want to build a landmark building.

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patent, IMO, great point. Thanks for sharing it. summer

[snooker]

Why hasn't anyone said WEIGHT. Do you know what a plane like these weigh. Add fire of all that jet fuel and the intitial impact, it is easy to see how these towers came down.

Note ... the impact took out a large number of outside building supports.

Note ... the fire consumed several floors immediately.

Note ... they chose some of the heaviest common planes.

If you carefully examine the collaspe sequence you will see the top floors came down on top of the 'on fire floors', then a chain reaction progressed as the weight(gravity) brought the buildings down one floor at a time. The added weight of the A/C played a role in the final collaspe, IMHO. I happen to have a DVR-TIVO hooked up and in slow-mo frame stop mode you clearly can see the sequence.

This was a sophisticated attack. As a engineer it is not clear how you defend a building against such a catastrophic attack. But I am sure engineers the world over will be looking for a solution since the vulnerability is now crystal clear.

snooker

[_Jim]

For the record, I believe that the OK City building was brought down by contact explosives

I'd like to hear *your* qualified explanation of what caused the widespread destruction in downtown OKC then - you know, the vehicles destroyed in the parking lot across from the Murrah building, what caused them to ignite, what caused the *structural* damage to several buildings in the area as well - you know, SMALL stuff that could be worked back to calculate the 'yield' of McVeigh's bomb and *disprove* this cockeyed 'contact explosive' theory that is also adhered to by ex-Gen Partin ...

BTW - Have you ever read the extensive report (The Oklahoma City Bombing: Improving Building Performance Through Multi-Hazard Mitigation) prepared by crack contingent of scientists/engineers/professors belonging the American Society of Civil Egineers?

Did you also know that the boys US Corps of Engineers Protective design Center :

http://pdc.nwo.usace.army.mil/protective_design_center_history.html

think it was an outside bomb which damaged the structure - which eventually then led to it's collapse?

http://pdc.nwo.usace.army.mil/protective_design_center_history.html#Postevent Surveys