Putin has just discovered the scale of his latest miscalculation

The Telegraph ^

[USA-FRANCE]

President Donald Trump has finally lost patience with Vladimir Putin. Having promised a “major” announcement on Russia, Trump has now confirmed that the US will dramatically increase weapons supplies to Europe for use in Ukraine and threatened 100 per cent secondary tariffs on Russia’s trade partners. Trump would only provide Russia with an off-ramp if Putin agreed to a ceasefire in Ukraine within 50 days.

[adorno]

“While there were earlier experiments and prototypes, the first autonomous vehicles that could truly be called self-driving were developed by Ernst Dickmanns and Daimler-Benz in the late 1980s. Their work, part of the European PROMETHEUS project, resulted in vehicles that could drive on public roads, including highways, without human intervention. “

Cute.

The word to use is: 'amazing!' But I know you can't do it because you are committed to denying the facts..

But are any of them actually self driving on the roads today like Waymo, Tesla, BYD?

Irrelevant. Besides the point. Immaterial.

The point is that, the tech was started by those that came before Tesla and BYD. The credit belongs to those that initiated the research, which led to the current state of the technology.

Nope.

You have too many 'nopes' in your posts/content. Try not being so much in denial and face the facts.

[SmokingJoe]

“Most foreign-made cars would be too expensive for the Chinese to afford. So, it's mostly a market for domestic made cars, which would tilt the market sales numbers heavily towards Chinese made cars.. Duh! “

Except foreign car makers like the Germans dominated the Chinese car market until fairly recently....until Chinese car makers like BYD started making excellent cars at much better prices, then they crushed the European car markers in the market.
That's free markets for ya.

[SmokingJoe]

“Irrelevant. Besides the point. Immaterial. “

Very relevant, Those technologies you mentioned are no more active.Tesla, BYD, Waymo are.

“The point is that, the tech was started by those that came before Tesla and BYD. The credit belongs to those that initiated the research, which led to the current state of the technology. “

That's like comparing the Space Shuttle which is dead, to the SpaceX Dragon /Falcon which is very much alive, very advanced today and kicking everyone's butt in launches.

[adorno]

“Irrelevant. Besides the point. Immaterial. “

Very relevant, Those technologies you mentioned are no more active.Tesla, BYD, Waymo are.

A fact cannot be undone by a simple denial of the truth.

Airplanes became reality after the initial flights, which launched all future innovations in that field.

Same with autonomy research, which occurred first in Europe and as I posted.

“The point is that, the tech was started by those that came before Tesla and BYD. The credit belongs to those that initiated the research, which led to the current state of the technology. “

Listen to that smart guy.

That's like comparing the Space Shuttle which is dead, to the SpaceX Dragon /Falcon which is very much alive, very advanced today and kicking everyone's butt in launches.

The shuttle program was shut down, but by a cretin who was only interested in saving money to be redirected towards social programs.

Nevertheless, it led the way for future research into space vehicles, even for the Space-X program. Nobody is going to start from scratch if there are lessons that can be taken from what occurred before. Nobody is that stupid.

The European research into autonomy led the way towards what we now know as self-driving tech, aka: autonomy.

You can deny, deny, deny. But all you do is lie, lie, lie. You must be Putin or Xi. Or one of their plants who only knows how to steal and copy and deny, deny, deny.

[adorno]

“Most foreign-made cars would be too expensive for the Chinese to afford. So, it's mostly a market for domestic made cars, which would tilt the market sales numbers heavily towards Chinese made cars.. Duh! “

That's so apparent and true. A very smart person must've noticed and posted that fact.

Except foreign car makers like the Germans dominated the Chinese car market until fairly recently....

Of course. The Chinese were interested in stealing and copying the tech and methods for production, so the Germans (and others) were allowed to operate in China until the Chinese had enough time to steal and copy and bring their production methods up to par.

until Chinese car makers like BYD started making excellent cars at much better prices,

Cheap labor and cheaper cost of operations and government control of production, will, of course. make the Chinese cars much cheaper. But they needed enough time to steal and copy the methods and tech, and then set up shop. Even a 10-year old could see how the Chinese were/are able to make and sell cars much cheaper, so why can't you? Oops! I forgot, you cannot admit to being wrong.

then they crushed the European car markers in the market.

By 'then' you mean, after they had enough time to steal and copy and set up production facilities. Gotcha!

That's free markets for ya.

The Chinese don't believe in the free-market. But people do look for the cheap stuff, even if it's junk.

The Chinese government controls everything produced in the country. Which is why Trump is levying high tariffs on everything that comes out of China. Haven't you been keeping up with the news? No wonder you are so misinformed and dis-informed and so clueless.

[SmokingJoe]

“Same with autonomy research, which occurred first in Europe and as I posted.”

Nope.
Europe didn't pioneer anything.
Grok:

The United States pioneered autonomous driving research, with early work dating back to the 1980s. Carnegie Mellon University's Navlab project, starting in 1984, was among the first to develop self-driving vehicles, testing prototypes like the Navlab 1 in 1986. The U.S. DARPA Grand Challenges in the 2000s further accelerated the field, with Stanford's Stanley vehicle winning in 2005.

[SmokingJoe]

“The shuttle program was shut down, but by a cretin who was only interested in saving money to be redirected towards social programs. “

The Space Shuttle cost between $450 million to $1.5 Billion per flight.
No country can afford that.
Plus it had 2 massive explosions killing all 14 astronauts on board.
No country can afford that nonsense either.
The Shuttle killed more astronauts than all other US Space craft combined.
Not great. It had to go.

[SmokingJoe]

“The Chinese were interested in stealing and copying the tech and methods for production, so the Germans (and others) were allowed to operate in China until the Chinese had enough time to steal and copy and bring their production methods up to par.”

Nope.
The Chinese were working super hard to develop their own technology even as the overconfident Germans continued to pat themselves on the back telling each other how superior and cute they were.
That is until Chinese firms like BYD swiftly overtook them, made better EVs at lower costs and grabbed almost all the market for themselves.
As we speak, the EU is working hard trying to put trade barriers to prevent Chinese EV companies like BYD from selling in the EU markets.
Why/?
Because the Chinese currently make better EVs at cheaper prices than the EU does.

[adorno]

“The Chinese were interested in stealing and copying the tech and methods for production, so the Germans (and others) were allowed to operate in China until the Chinese had enough time to steal and copy and bring their production methods up to par.”

Amazing! So much truth in that statement. Even Trump and most of Americans agree.

Nope. <

Try to be 'nopeless', because 'nope' just means you have no real responses and are hopeless. ;)

The Chinese were working super hard to develop their own technology even as the overconfident Germans continued to pat themselves on the back telling each other how superior and cute they were.

Cute? Never heard it put that way before. Makes no sense. Don't make things up. Making things up just shows you are losing the argument, and btw, you have lost the argument from the beginning.

The Chinese knew that by allowing in companies which they lacked, that they could then mandate the technology be turned over and studies and stolen and copied. NOBODY can deny that the Chinese have taken advantage of other countries' technology and production ideas.

That is until Chinese firms like BYD swiftly overtook them, made better EVs at lower costs and grabbed almost all the market for themselves.

Producing more is very easy when the government provided the funding and facilities and the massive and cheap labor force.

Better EVs? Very laughable. More does not mean better. Most other EV makers produce better EVs than the junk produced in China.

As we speak, the EU is working hard trying to put trade barriers to prevent Chinese EV companies like BYD from selling in the EU markets.

Well, duh! When the EU and American technology was stolen and then used to compete with those other countries, it's only natural for them to impose restrictions on the thieves.
Why?

Stop being so dense. You know why.

Because the Chinese currently make better EVs at cheaper prices than the EU does.

Hogwash. Copycat products can never be better than the originals which continue to get better. Chine screwed itself by being such copycats, and most countries are preventing new technology from being sent to China.

China will have to start using their heads and start producing their own innovations, instead of depending on foreign companies as the 'Chinese research departments'.

If China stops getting the research assistance from foreign companies and foreign governments, they will revert to being the basket-case they were before 40-50 years ago. Communism is a death-knell to anybody that adopts it as their form of economy and government.

When it comes to the best quality EVs, no Chinese brand is mentioned in this:

Determining the "best" EV manufacturer for quality is subjective and depends on individual priorities. However, Tesla is often cited as a leader in innovation and overall quality, particularly for its technology and charging infrastructure. Other manufacturers like Hyundai, Kia, Lucid, and Rivian also receive praise for their quality and specific strengths.

Tesla:

Known for its advanced technology, long range, and extensive Supercharger network. Tesla has also been a major force in popularizing EVs and pushing the industry forward according to Electric Vehicle Technician Training Program.

Hyundai and Kia:

Both brands have impressed with their well-rounded EVs, like the Hyundai Ioniq 5 and Kia EV6, offering good range, performance, and features at competitive prices.

Lucid:

The Lucid Air has been recognized for its exceptional range and luxury features.

Rivian:

Rivian has carved a niche with its electric trucks and SUVs, particularly the R1T, which is praised for its capabilities and design according to MotorTrend. Other notable manufacturers: Volkswagen, Porsche, Mercedes-Benz, and Polestar also produce high-quality EVs with unique strengths.

[SmokingJoe]

“The Chinese knew that by allowing in companies which they lacked, that they could then mandate the technology be turned over and studies and stolen and copied. NOBODY can deny that the Chinese have taken advantage of other countries’ technology and production ideas. “

Given the Germans/Europeans have never led in EVs, what was there for the Chinese to “steal” from them?
You can't steal something they don't have
Right now, Tesla and the Chinese dominate in EVs.
European car companies, despite massive government subsidies are behind the Chinese EV companies.

[SmokingJoe]

“When it comes to the best quality EVs, no Chinese brand is mentioned in this:

---

Lucid:
The Lucid Air has been recognized for its exceptional range and luxury features.
Rivian: “

Rivian and Locid?

Rivian with just 40,000 EVs sold last year,
and Lucid with 51,000 sold?

Chortle.
I really doubt if those 2 companies will even be around in 10 years.
Rivian made a net loss of a staggering $5.4 Billion in 2024.
And Lucid made a loss of $2.8 Billion last year too, despite massive subsidies and money inputs from US states and from established car companies.

Rivian got $$827 Million from Illinois and another $6.6 Billion from Georgia. Lucid also got subsidies from Arizona. They are very sick and may not live for long.
Sorry.

[SmokingJoe]

“If China stops getting the research assistance from foreign companies and foreign governments, they will revert to being the basket-case they were before 40-50 years ago. Communism is a death-knell to anybody that adopts it as their form of economy and government. “

Chinese EV companies are getting “research assistance from foreign governments”?
Pray so tell us, which foreign governments are these?
Another point China is currently too powerful industrially and economically to be a “basket case”.
You may need to worry more about Europe.

[adorno]

“The Chinese knew that by allowing in companies with technology which they lacked, that they could then mandate the technology be turned over and studied and stolen and copied. NOBODY can deny that the Chinese have taken advantage of other countries’ technology and production ideas. “

Those Chinese are such villains.

Given the Germans/Europeans have never led in EVs, what was there for the Chinese to “steal” from them?

The Europeans have some of the best EVs in the world, and along with Tesla technology and from other American EV makers, the Chinese had the best of the best to steal and copy from.

Notice that in my prior post to you I quoted about what EV makers had the best EVs with the best EV technology and that no Chinese made EV was included, while some from Europe were.

You can't steal something they don't have

What they have now is much better than the Chinese EVs. Producing the most EVs is not the same as producing the best quality.

Right now, Tesla and the Chinese dominate in EVs.

Tesla does produce good quality vehicles. China produces the most, but that does NOT mean good quality at all.

European car companies, despite massive government subsidies are behind the Chinese EV companies.

Subsidies are not what the free-market system is about, so it should be discouraged or banned in all countries.

But in China, all vehicles and all production of anything, is via the government mandates. ALL EVs in China are sold with subsidies, while in the U.S., the subsidies are being stopped. All EVs in China might as well be branded, "PLC Motors' (People's Republic of China) because that is exactly what they are.

Take a look: In 2024, China was the largest exporter of electric vehicles globally, but the number of Chinese EVs sold in the US is very low. In Europe, Chinese EV sales are growing, with nearly a fifth of electric vehicles sold there being made in China.

Chinese EV sales in the US are currently minimal. There's a very small number of Chinese EVs sold in the US.

The US is a net importer of electric vehicles overall, but Chinese brands have not gained significant traction.

Chinese EV sales in Europe are significant and growing.

In the first quarter of 2024, nearly a fifth of electric vehicles sold in Europe were made in China.

One analysis suggests that this could rise to a quarter of sales in 2024.

BYD and MG are among the Chinese brands seeing increased sales in Europe.

European countries like the UK and France are seeing a small percentage of their EV sales coming from China.

A LARGER ANALYSIS:

In Europe, electric vehicles (EVs) account for a relatively small percentage of the overall car fleet, despite significant growth in recent years. While the exact percentage varies by source and specific regions, it's generally estimated that EVs (both battery-electric and plug-in hybrids) represent around 2-3% of the total cars on the road in Europe.

The math:

If the EV market-share of all vehicles in Europe is a measly 2-3%, and the Chinese made EVs are only about 20% of all EVs, it means that the number of Chinese EVs on the road in Europe is almost imperceptible.

So the Chinese EVs have about 0.5 percent of all the cars on the road in Europe. Quick, get me a microscope!

You want to brag about your Chinese market share?

BTW, in the U.S., the Chinese EV market share for all vehicles, is not measurable. Calculators do not go down that low. ;)

[adorno]

“If China stops getting the research assistance from foreign companies and foreign governments, they will revert to being the basket-case they were before 40-50 years ago. Communism is a death-knell to anybody that adopts it as their form of economy and government. “

So true.

You're getting a big education from whoever is posting those gems. You need to start paying for that education.

Chinese EV companies are getting “research assistance from foreign governments”?

Sure as water is wet.

Pray so tell us,

No need to pray. The truth is out there. ;)

which foreign governments are these?

That's an easy one, and one that even you should be able to answer.

No company works outside a country, and countries have governments, and those governments are allowing their IP and sensitive/secret information to be stolen, via the companies that do business in China.

Apparently, you can't put 2 and 2 together.

Another point China is currently too powerful industrially and economically to be a “basket case”.

The country as a whole, is an economic basket case. Most of the people live in deep poverty, even as China has the second largest GDP for countries.

And if they're deprived of the IP and technology and research from other countries, they'll have no real way to keep up with the rest of the world, and they'll regress to being the basket case they were some 50 years ago before the U.S. and others decided to try to bring up that basket case into modern times and into prosperity and into not being a hostile country.

You may need to worry more about Europe.

Europe is not communist, even if they embrace socialism as much as they do now. Communism is a killer form of economics and government, and if not for the U.S. and other western economies, China would be no better off than Haiti, where Haiti is the poorest country in the known universe.

[SmokingJoe]

“But in China, all vehicles and all production of anything, is via the government mandates. ALL EVs in China are sold with subsidies, while in the U.S., the subsidies are being stopped. All EVs in China might as well be branded, “PLC Motors’ (People’s Republic of China) because that is exactly what they are.”

WRONG AGAIN!

Grok:
Phase-Out of Purchase Subsidies: China ended its national EV purchase subsidies at the end of 2022 after over a decade of support, which amounted to over 200 billion yuan (approximately $28 billion) from 2009 to 2022.

[SmokingJoe]

“That's an easy one, and one that even you should be able to answer.

No company works outside a country, and countries have governments, and those governments are allowing their IP and sensitive/secret information to be stolen, via the companies that do business in China. “

So you still refuse to tell us which countries Chinese EV companies are supposedly getting “research assistance from foreign governments” from?
No surprise there.
No foreign governments gives “research assistance” funds to any Chinese EV companies, let alone from Europe. The Chinese got where they are through sheer hard work and innovation. The Chinese work much harder than Europeans do and it shows in the results.

[SmokingJoe]

“If the EV market-share of all vehicles in Europe is a measly 2-3%, and the Chinese made EVs are only about 20% of all EVs, it means that the number of Chinese EVs on the road in Europe is almost imperceptible.

So the Chinese EVs have about 0.5 percent of all the cars on the road in Europe. Quick, get me a microscope! “

Actually EV’s make up approximately 15% of cars sold in Europe.
In China its a massive close to 50% EVs , projected to go to 605 this year.
China totally dominates in total EV sales.
Will China like to sell even more EV’s in Europe?
Sure.
But does China have by far the biggest EV market on the planet at home in China?
Yup.

[adorno]

“But in China, all vehicles and all production of anything, is via the government mandates. ALL EVs in China are sold with subsidies, while in the U.S., the subsidies are being stopped. All EVs in China might as well be branded, “PLC Motors’ (People’s Republic of China) because that is exactly what they are.”

WRONG AGAIN!

Woah, all caps and shouting.

But,

The truth is never wrong. The truth might be wrong for you, but not to the rest of the world. You must be a democrat, who hate the truth, because the truth is their worst enemy.

Phase-Out of Purchase Subsidies: China ended its national EV purchase subsidies at the end of 2022 after over a decade of support, which amounted to over 200 billion yuan (approximately $28 billion) from 2009 to 2022.

Nope!

Hey! You've infected my vocabulary with your favorite word. I need a cure for that 'nope'. Is there hope? ;)

Anyhow, and like I said before, the truth is out there:

Yes, China heavily subsidizes its electric vehicle (EV) industry through various measures. These subsidies have played a significant role in the rapid growth of China's EV market and its dominance in global EV production and sales. The subsidies include direct purchase subsidies, tax breaks, and support for charging infrastructure and research and development.

China has offered significant purchase subsidies to encourage consumers to buy EVs, making them more affordable compared to traditional gasoline-powered cars.

EV purchases are often exempt from certain taxes, further reducing the cost for consumers.

The government has invested in building charging infrastructure to address range anxiety and encourage EV adoption.

Subsidies are also provided to EV manufacturers and battery producers, lowering production costs and making EVs more competitive.

China has implemented trade-in programs where consumers can receive subsidies for scrapping older, polluting vehicles and purchasing new EVs.

Subsidies have been a major driver of the rapid growth in EV sales in China, making it the world's largest EV market.

China's EV industry has grown to dominate global production and sales, mostly due to the impact of these subsidies.

Subsidies have helped make EVs more affordable for consumers, contributing to a competitive market with lower prices than in some other regions.

Subsidies are not without their critics. Some argue that they create unfair competition for international EV manufacturers and distort the market.

The European Union, in particular, has raised concerns about the potential impact of Chinese EV subsidies on its own auto industry and has initiated investigations into alleged unfair subsidies says the Kiel Institute.

China's EV Makers Got $231 Billion in Subsidies.

Overall, China's extensive EV subsidies have played a crucial role in the country's success in the EV market, but they have also become a point of contention in international trade.

so, it's apparent that the Chinese government was/is instrumental in getting their EV sales to become the largest in the world. Without the Chinese government, it's likely that there would be no Chinese EV makers, much less such a large market share. If just the Chinese market was not so huge, Chinese EVs would hold a tiny share of the EV market.

Take the Chinese government out of the EV equation, and China would be a net importer of EVs, with virtually no EV exports to speak of.

[SmokingJoe]

“The truth is never wrong. The truth might be wrong for you, but not to the rest of the world. You must be a democrat, who hate the truth, because the truth is their worst enemy. “

But then a lie is always wrong, like the big lies you just keep spewing out.
China has phased out EV sales subsidies since 2022.
That's a fact. Europe still has em in most European countries.
And China currently has more dollar billionaires than Europe does.
The Chinese are more entrepreneurial and creative than the Europeans, that's why China is currently clobbering the Europeans in almost any industry one cares to look at.

[SmokingJoe]

“The government has invested in building charging infrastructure to address range anxiety and encourage EV adoption.
Subsidies are also provided to EV manufacturers and battery producers, lowering production costs and making EVs more competitive. “

Like every European country you mean?
Nobody gives more subsidies to EVs, “green new deal” outfits etc than Europe does.
European industries currently exist on massive subsidies from their governments or from the EU.
Don't let China's Communist government fool you.
They are very capitalistic.
There are currently tons of Chinese who've started from nothing and created massive world beating companies in all kinds of fields.
Europe?
Not so much.