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Posted on 05/21/2025 4:29:40 AM PDT by marktwain
The war between Russia and Ukraine is the first drone war. Not the first war in which drones have been used (that was arguably WWII), but the first war in which drones may have accounted for the most significant proportion of casualties. Defense against drones is an imperative, and many different approaches are being tried.
Ordinary lead shotgun loads have very limited range. The pellets are lead. Significant improvement could be made by using TSS shot in shotguns. TSS shot is very hard and very spherical. It is about 2/3 more dense than lead, about 18-18.5 grams per cubic centimeter. Lead is about 11.3 grams per cubic centimeter. Because of the hardness, symmetry and density, TSS holds tight patterns at long range, often with little choke. TSS #5 shot is considered to have enough energy at 105 yards to bring down geese. If it hits a vital component, it should have enough energy to disrupt small drones. There are 106 #5 TSS shot per ounce. It is easy to fit 1.5 ounces of TSS in an ordinary 2.75-inch 12-gauge shotgun shell. Tungsten has been used as a military projectile for years.
About 50 years ago, this correspondent was supporting and witnessed a test at Hunter Liggett Military Reservation in California.
(Excerpt) Read more at ammoland.com ...
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Image from Ministry of Defense of Ukraine
I’m getting too old for the duck blind.
But I can remember using bismuth and tungsten shot many years ago when
they outlawed lead shot over water.
That drone can drop that grenade from well more than 100 yards up and hit it’s aiming point within 5 meters or less. The lethal radius of a grenade like that is 15+ meters. You drop the payload outside the range of shotguns. There is plenty of video on X of both sides opening up with fully automatic fire on various drones even kamikaze drones and they don’t hit them. It.wouldn’t be hard to put a small laser seeker in the head of a freefall grenade and drop it from 1000s of feet up.
The tech is 1970s. Four IR diodes, a simple processor as simple as a 6V basic stamp with an 8 bit CPU. Logic programmed to bang/bang move two servos on the X/Y axis to even out the amplitude received by the four diodes. This is exactly how the first LGB worked the seeker simply centers the reflected light and the munition falls down the cone right on top of the target every time. The cost would be a few tens of dollars for the whole set up. Anyone with basic soldering skills and a knowledge of very basic coding. Today no one uses basic stamp microprocessors it’s all Python based Pi’s same same you could just as easy use a $10 Raspberry Pi and then you have proportional guidance not bang/bang on/off guidance. The effect was clearly visible in first gen missiles such has the sidewinder it’s why it well sidewinds as the seeker only bang/bang the control fins is snaked back and forth crossing the center of field of view each time.
Point is shotguns will not help you when drones already can drop grenades from outside of any shotgun range that still hit inside the grenades lethal radius. Adding laser seeker only make them more deadly and then you can drop them not from 300 meters up but 3000 meters or more and off center too.
Tungsten is Gucci expensive. $60 or more per LB if you can get someone to sell you the shot in bulk. For loaded shells $5 to $10 each is not uncommon. Bismuth is the only economical shot for waterfowl in bulk unless you got trust fund money’s.
TSS is impressive we are allowed up to #2 or #4 shot on WMA’s during off season no rifles or pistols at all when it’s not deer season. #4 will go completely through a 75# wild hog abroadsides and face on will end up in the hind gut and quarters either way dead critter but at $7 per shot you better really want that hog. We have used TSS on geese in BB size you can skyblast well into the 100 yard range and they fold up as if God himself smacked them out of the sky. Again $7+ per shell you got to want that goose. I usually bring bismuth in BB or F for skyblasting and a box or two of TSS if they just won’t get close enough for big bismuth which can bring tham down out to 75 yards in a 3.5” supermag and a 1.75oz load, you got to man up for the recoil it’s on par with my 375 H&H mag and that has people.shooting it once and saying F that never again.
Well aren’t you a ray of sunshine.
Thanks. Your comment really excited my aspiring engineer son, who recently graduated with physics and math and is looking for a job, preferably in aerospace.
12 gauge is about the right size for an anti-drone PGM. Give it a little rocket for constant pressure boost through the barrel and sustainer in flight. Those little drones don’t usually exceed 180fps and probably difficult to go over 400fps, so a 600fps PGM from an auto shotgun should nail the things. Many options for guidance too.
Of course the obvious escalation is terminal boost on the drone payload so it can stand off even further...
“Drones can be difficult to bring down.”
Not true. Gravity’s a bitch and they’re fragile as hell on multiple levels. VERY vulnerable.
I’ve already designed an anti-drone system. OTS with a twist.
Then I had an epiphany:
Someone already did that...and shelved it.
There is little - scratch that: ZERO desire to shut down drones.
Read the news.
Is my 12 gauge is now a "military weapon"?
Advise your son to ‘go with the flow’ and not against it.
For some reason the entire defense industry avoids effective defense against small threats. That includes the navy. The only logical conclusion is that the drone industry produces an order of magnitude greater profits - including expensive, ineffective solutions - than the simple/inexpensive alternative I’ve framed for the ‘cheap drone threat.’
Best of luck to him.
Thank you. He is not having much luck yet and is convinced that he needs a MS in Engineering b/c he had a physics and not engineering BS. I think he just needs to get in somewhere and they will quickly see his aptitude, but I can certainly understand his feelings.
It’s an automatic to read anything from Dean. Thanks for posting.
My point is that innovation only goes so far and that youthful vigor tends to ignore the subtle hints to take a certain tack, often to a career’s - and health - peril.
I know.
Obviously not universal, but the signs shouldn’t be ignored, but rather guide a man’s employment opportunity, meaning stay flexible enough to change employers until the right fit is secured for some stability.
I know someone who got cornered in the aerospace industry under Boeing and was fortunate enough to retire before the full effects of the merger hit the workers. I cannot imagine being told, “Do it THIS way, not the best way.”
POTUS’ crew hasn’t even begun to examine the bureaucracy under FAA; the F47 contract was a harbinger of things to remain the same.
So far troops trying to shoot done rapidly moving and maneuvering drones has ended up with dead troops. This idea will far no better.
Well, in WWI, they were sawed off and used to clear trenches. The “Trench Guns” were quite popular - and efficient.
You seem to know about these things. Question is if you’re shooting tungsten it’s hard, 7.5 on the Mohs scale.
Wouldn’t it damage your barrel unless it was chrome lined like a Benelli or a Beretta?
What about a radio frequency jammer on the same frequencies as the drone but with much more power?
That is a cute little bomb.
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