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To: Petrosius
I call this BS! Putin is trying to reestablish the old Russian Empire. He has repeatedly said that he does not view Ukraine as a real country, that it is properly a part of Russia. Nor did the present war in Ukraine start because of some mythic oppression of the Russian minority. Its roots are in Putin's attempt to block the EU/Ukraine economic agreement. Putin saw Ukraine acting as a sovereign nation and moving away from Russian domination. This he could not accept.

And I call that BS. Did Russia annex south Ossetia from Georgia? No. Putin talked about Crimea and the Donbas being historically part of Russia....and any examination of the history will reveal that they were. That's why they had Russian speaking ethnic Russians as the majority of the population there. I also call BS on the claim that the oppression of the Russian minority there is "mythic". No its not. They specifically declared Russian not to be one of the official languages, stopped issuing government documents in Russian, started making it difficult to broadcast in Russian, etc etc. It was the Deep State that saw Ukraine not making a deal with the EU but instead making an economic deal with Russia under Yanukovych that prompted Victoria Nuland and co to launch a color revolution to overthrow the democratically elected president of Ukraine in 2014. That which you just accused Russia of is actually what the Deep State is guilty of.

The West was not pushing Ukraine to enter NATO. If anything, they were temporizing and putting it off. It was Ukraine that was pushing for it.

Bush said Ukraine would be in NATO back in 07-08. Look at the date of this article. Its 2021. That's pre war and NATO is refusing to ensure Ukraine will not join NATO https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/12/10/nato-refuses-to-backtrack-on-ukraine-georgia-membership-promise

Because Ukraine was seeking NATO protection from further Russian aggression. Russia had already seized three provinces and was a continual threat.

This started before Russia had seized anything. Before the war, Russia had seized Crimea, not Donetsk or Lugansk. The latter were merely seeking autonomy not independence and not to join Russia. Autonomy for those two provinces is what Ukraine agreed to in the Minsk accords....then immediately started shelling them.

Russia is no innocent victim here. If this is, as some falsely claim, all about NATO expansion, let Russia offer to withdrawal from Ukraine in return for Ukrainian neutrality. But we both know that will never happen.

Russia has certainly shown itself willing to play hardball but it was the Deep State that started doing that first by expanding NATO hundreds of miles eastward after promising not to do so. There is simply no way Russia is going to withdraw from the Donbas at this point. Had the West indicated it was willing to accept Ukrainian neutrality before 2022, there would have been no war. That's all Russia was demanding.

85 posted on 06/06/2024 9:20:26 AM PDT by FLT-bird
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To: FLT-bird
Putin talked about Crimea and the Donbas being historically part of Russia....and any examination of the history will reveal that they were.

Not so. Historically Donbas fell under the Cossack Hetmanate which became a Russian feudal dependence in 1649 but was ruled by its own Hetman, not directly by Moscow. This lasted until Catherine the Great abolished it in 1764 and incorporated all of Ukraine directly into Russia.


1720 map of Ukraine

Crimea was only conquered by Russia in 1774 and annexed into Russia in 1783. Russians only became the majority when Stalin expelled the native Tartars and replaced them with ethnic Russians.

That's why they had Russian speaking ethnic Russians as the majority of the population there.

As I have repeatedly shown, only Crimea has an ethnic Russian majority and that for the reason I stated above. Donbas, despite Russian claims, has an ethnic Ukrainian majority (around 60%). The bulk of the Russian population only dates back to the late 19th century with the development of the coal industry and latter industrialization. So it is fallacy to claim that these territories were historically Russian. And what excuse do make for Russia's annexation of Kherson and Zaporizhzhia, which have overwhelmingly Ukrainian populations?

They specifically declared Russian not to be one of the official languages, stopped issuing government documents in Russian, started making it difficult to broadcast in Russian, etc etc.

And why should Ukrainian state institutions operate in Russian? As for broadcasts, all the law stated was that Ukrainian had to be used alongside Russia, i.e., they could not broadcast in Russian only.

It was the Deep State that saw Ukraine not making a deal with the EU but instead making an economic deal with Russia under Yanukovych that prompted Victoria Nuland and co to launch a color revolution to overthrow the democratically elected president of Ukraine in 2014.

You are starting the play one act too late. Yanukovych ran on support for the EU/Ukraine agreement which had been approved by the parliament and was supported by the vast majority of Ukrainians. He reversed himself and betrayed his electoral mandate only after major pressure from Putin. The protests were a natural response, not the result of CIA plotting.

This started before Russia had seized anything. Before the war, Russia had seized Crimea, not Donetsk or Lugansk. The latter were merely seeking autonomy not independence and not to join Russia. Autonomy for those two provinces is what Ukraine agreed to in the Minsk accords...then immediately started shelling them.

Let's not be naïve. Donetsk and Luhansk were seized by Russia through the use of local surrogate militias. As for autonomy, Ukraine passed a law twice, in compliance to the Minsk accords, granting autonomy. It is Russia who balked and violated the accords by not removing its forces and handing over the border to Ukraine. Nor, as has been claimed, did Ukraine just start deliberately shelling civilian populations. Rather, fighting broke out between forces on both sides when, in violation of the accords, Russia failed to withdraw in forces and hand over the border to Ukraine, and refused to allow Ukraine to conduct the agreed to referendum.

Had the West indicated it was willing to accept Ukrainian neutrality before 2022, there would have been no war. That's all Russia was demanding.

Then why did Putin reject the offer of no NATO that his envoy to Ukraine received from Zelensky prior to the invasion?

98 posted on 06/06/2024 1:17:34 PM PDT by Petrosius
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