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To: kabar

I appreciate your perspective, but the narrative of red lines seems to be applied only to one side. And arranged coups also apply to both sides, just look at present day Africa and other areas around the world for Russias activities

Btw putin did state in interview with tucker that poland started ww2 by not agreeing to hitlers demands.

That statement alone is all I needed to hear.

We will disagree on much, but the huge sacrifice that the people of the Soviet Union suffered is not one of them


27 posted on 05/22/2024 6:49:55 PM PDT by blitz128
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To: blitz128
I appreciate your perspective, but the narrative of red lines seems to be applied only to one side.

Au contraire. Google the Cuban missile crisis. NATO has drawn red lines vis a vis aggression against member states, i.e., Article 5. Economic sanctions are red lines.

And arranged coups also apply to both sides, just look at present day Africa and other areas around the world for Russia's activities

The US has pursued an aggressive interventionist foreign policy. We can oppose tyranny, but our blood and treasure must be used judiciously. We didn't send troops or arms to Hungary in 1956 or Prague in 1968 or Warsaw in 1982. What did 18 years in Afghanistan or 8 years in Vietnam achieve? How many wars have Russia and China engaged in? Very few compared to us. Endless wars weaken us.

U.S. Foreign Policy Increasingly Relies on Military Interventions--When confronted with hot spots around the world, the U.S. has been moving away from diplomatic approaches and toward showing force more often, says new book

According to the project’s data, the U.S. has been involved in 393 military interventions in other nations since 1776. More than 200 of those have been since 1945, and 114 in the post-Cold War era (after 1989).

Just since the year 2000, the project documents 72 interventions. And in one region of the world, the Middle East and North Africa, the U.S. has been involved in 77 military interventions, mostly since the 1940s.

Over-reliance on force rather than diplomacy, intelligence gathering, economic statecraft, and the powers of persuasion can also harm the U.S. reputation abroad, causing it to be seen as a threat and to lose its influence, Toft says. “The book is basically a battle cry for strengthening the Department of State.”

“Americans think that the United States should be engaged. I’m not calling for an isolationist position,” she says. “I’m calling for more restraint, particularly when it comes to the use of force.”

Btw putin did state in interview with tucker that poland started ww2 by not agreeing to hitlers demands. That statement alone is all I needed to hear.

I was able to find the transcript of the Putin interview. I found your characterization of what was said wanting and lacking in context. Here are some pertinent excerpts:

Under the rule of Catherine the Great, Russia reclaimed all of its historical lands, including in the south and west. This all lasted until the Revolution. Before World War I, Austrian General Staff relied on the ideas of Ukrainianization and started actively promoting the ideas of Ukraine and the Ukrainianization. Their motive was obvious. Just before World War I they wanted to weaken the potential enemy and secure themselves favourable conditions in the border area. So the idea which had emerged in Poland that people residing in that territory were allegedly not really Russians, but rather belonged to a special ethnic group, Ukrainians, started being propagated by the Austrian General Staff.

As far back as the 19th century, theorists calling for Ukrainian independence appeared. All those, however, claimed that Ukraine should have a very good relationship with Russia. They insisted on that. After the 1917 Revolution, the Bolsheviks sought to restore the statehood, and the Civil War began, including the hostilities with Poland. In 1921, peace with Poland was proclaimed, and under that treaty, the right bank of the Dnieper River once again was given back to Poland.

In 1939, after Poland cooperated with Hitler — it did collaborate with Hitler, you know —Hitler offered Poland peace and a treaty of friendship and alliance - we have all the relevant documents in the archives, demanding in return that Poland give back to Germany the so-called Danzig Corridor, which connected the bulk of Germany with East Prussia and Konigsberg. After World War I this territory was transferred to Poland, and instead of Danzig, a city of Gdansk emerged. Hitler asked them to give it amicably, but they refused. Still they collaborated with Hitler and engaged together in the partitioning of Czechoslovakia.

Tucker Carlson: May I ask… You are making the case that Ukraine, certain parts of Ukraine, Eastern Ukraine, in fact, has been Russia for hundreds of years, why wouldn’t you just take it when you became President 24 years ago? Your have nuclear weapons, they don’t. It’s actually your land. Why did you wait so long?

Vladimir Putin: I’ll tell you. I’m coming to that. This briefing is coming to an end. It might be boring, but it explains many things.

Tucker Carlson: It’s not boring.

Vladimir Putin: Good. Good. I am so gratified that you appreciate that. Thank you.

So before World War II, Poland collaborated with Hitler and although it did not yield to Hitler’s demands, it still participated in the partitioning of Czechoslovakia together with Hitler. As the Poles had not given the Danzig Corridor to Germany, and went too far, pushing Hitler to start World War II by attacking them. Why was it Poland against whom the war started on 1 September 1939? Poland turned out to be uncompromising, and Hitler had nothing to do but start implementing his plans with Poland.

By the way, the USSR — I have read some archive documents — behaved very honestly. It asked Poland’s permission to transit its troops through the Polish territory to help Czechoslovakia. But the then Polish foreign minister said that if the Soviet planes flew over Poland, they would be downed over the territory of Poland. But that doesn’t matter. What matters is that the war began, and Poland fell prey to the policies it had pursued against Czechoslovakia, as under the well-known Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, part of that territory, including western Ukraine, was to be given to Russia. Thus Russia, which was then named the USSR, regained its historical lands.

After the victory in, what we call the Great Patriotic War - World War II, all those territories were ultimately enshrined as belonging to Russia, to the USSR. As for Poland, it received, apparently in compensation, western, originally German, territories - the eastern part of Germany, part of the lands, these are the western regions of Poland today. Of course, Poland regained access to the Baltic sea, and Danzig, which was once again given its Polish name. So this was how this situation developed.

Without going into great detail, Ukraine, like many countries in Europe, has had many borders and different inhabitants. Currently, it has been an independent country for less than 35 years. Its territory contains lands that were formerly under different countries less than 100 years ago. WWI and WWII affected these boundaries. And to this very day, there are still separatist movements in Europe.

The occupation of part of Cieszyn Silesia by Poland in 1938

The allegation of participation in the partition of Czechoslovakia in the fall of 1938 is one of the permanent elements of the historical narrative directed against Poland. The decision on partition of the territory of the First Republic was made on September 29 during a conference in Munich with the participation of France, Germany, Great Britain and Italy. The democratic Western powers took a passive stance, agreeing to implement Hitler's demands. The final course of the new borders was to be decided by a special commission composed of representatives of the parties contracting in the capital of Bavaria and the ČSR. The conference participants also issued an additional statement to the concluded agreement, which concerned the Polish and Hungarian minorities in Czechoslovakia. In the absence of a compromise on these issues, it was announced that the Munich Four would meet again after three months.

Polish diplomacy presented its position on the decisions taken after they were made public, stressing that it did not recognize them as binding and was consistently based on the principle of "nothing about us without us". In Warsaw, it was feared that the powers would come to an understanding with Germany at the expense of the Polish Republic, as in the case of the ČSR, making it the object of a diplomatic game. In the political situation prevailing in Europe at that time, there was a real threat of applying "Munich methods" in relation to Gdańsk, Polish Pomerania or Silesia.

For this reason, on September 30, 1938, Poland issued an ultimatum to Prague, expecting the constituencies of Cieszyn and Fryštát to be included within the borders of the Republic of Poland within ten days, conducting a plebiscite in the remaining territories of the Republic inhabited by Poles, and the release of all political prisoners of Polish origin. On October 1, the demands were accepted and the ČSR authorities emphasized their goodwill in efforts to resolve the conflict

28 posted on 05/23/2024 8:35:32 AM PDT by kabar
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