Posted on 12/30/2023 8:10:14 AM PST by SaxxonWoods
In response to your question which a thread of comments left off in favor of 'whatever,' Europe is two distinct entities in the moment, the EU comprising about 450 million and the more general "Europe" which comprises about 700 million.
Has Europe just committed suicide? The larger entity suggests not. The European Union has, to my view.
As one watched Habeck of the German Greens simply dismiss fellow Germans losing their businesses over high energy prices, it surely seems that the political class is killing much of Europe in favor of socialism's aims and the scams of Covid and climate and "migration."
Will a different Europe survive the suicide attempt? In time, yes, when those dreaded "populist" parties gain enough power to retake from the European Commission their own and individual "home rule."
It is predicatbly going to be a mess in the interim.
Best wishes.
Anyone with a sense of history knows how recently many peoples came to national consciousness and independence. People come to feel that they are a nation and outsiders who tell them that they aren’t don’t simply override that feeling.Your argument doesn’t work against Ukraine anymore than it works against the Bosnians, Macedonians, Kosovans, Palestinians (and Israelis) or the Kurds. The idea that because the Kurds are now ruled by Turkey and Iraq, that this is somehow fated and necessary doesn’t work. Iraq was itself one of those “invented countries” created by Britain and France partitioning the region after the First World War, and it’s had trouble holding itself together through the years.
In the 19th century, Russians and Ukrainians were aware of differences between them. Ukrainians were an ethnic minority within the Russian Empire. Same thing for the Finns, Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Poles, Georgians, Armenians, and Azerbajanis. Same thing for the peoples of Central Asia, whose boundaries were imposed upon them by the Soviets, who encouraged them to think of themselves as autonomous (though not independent). They’re all independent countries now. The same thing would have happened in the Russian Far East, if the Communists had been foolish enough to promote different national cultures there.
The Horde had been driven out of Kiev more than 100 years earlier than Ugra.
Nice try, kid.
I’ll go slowly, so you can follow (however, even a snail’s pace might be too much for you).
Post #1 said, “ANyone with any sense of history knows that there was NEVER a Ukraine...”
Kid, NEVER means “...at no time in the past or future; on no occasion; not ever; not at all.” That means that from time immemorial to the date of the post (today, December 30, 2023), there was never anything known as Ukraine. Well, even you, in your singular ignorance, recognize that that statement is false on its face, as you said – even with all the grammatical errors – that, “Ukraine had it’s longest term as a quasi sovereign nation as a vassal region of Russian & then the USSR. Before that it was owned by many other entities throughout history, and that did not include the landmass east of the Dnieper River.” So, necessarily, Ukraine had to have existed in some capacity.
But, let’s focus on Ukraine’s status as an independent and sovereign nation (which Russia and many of its cheerleaders here on FR vigorously dispute); indeed, Russia and its cheerleaders now deny that Ukraine is an independent and sovereign nation. Post #1 denies that it is (even though, ironically, Russia itself had previously officially recognized and accepted it as such).
I responded to post #1 in my post #10. Specifically: “Russia even officially recognized Ukraine as an independent and sovereign nation, as did the international family of nations. Prior to its independence as an independent and sovereign nation, Ukraine was a Soviet Socialist Republic (Ukraine SSR), just as Russia was (Russia SSR) and Belarus was (Belarus SSR). According to (Post #1) logic, Belarus is not now an independent and sovereign nation; nor, for that matter, is Russia.”
So, you see; there HAS been a Ukraine of some designation or definition in the past, as well as up to and including the present. And, its present designation and definition (and international acceptance and recognition) is that of an independent and sovereign nation.
And, as to your comment that in the past Ukraine “ended” at the Dnieper; the same logic can be applied to Russia, in that in the past Russia “ended” at the Urals.
Get it, kid?
By what? Ghosts?? Mongols pretty much killed everybody in Kiev. As the defacto head state in pre-Mongol Russia, it was encombant upon the ducks of Kiev to protect ALL Russians and they totally flubbed out, leaving it to the rulers of Moscow to finally fix the mess.
“The quote that there was never a Ukraine is a lie or delusion.”
Edify us.
As far as I can tell (I’m no expert), Ukraine became a country circa 1992.
Before that they were the possession of various empires, and often shared between them.
That’s hilarious
I was just going to write that...
“Edify us. As far as I can tell (I’m no expert), Ukraine became a country circa 1992.”
See my Post #45.
Yes, however they've been working on it for Decades.
Europeans are not very good at getting things done.
Why is Armstrong’s article from 2022 presented as a current piece?
...
Don't expect many to understand them.
Europe committed suicide with WWI, a totally unnecessary war. It continued on its suicidal path with the equally unnecessary League of Nations (thanks to Woodrow Wilson) and the Versailles Treaty that led inevitably to WWII. It finally completed its suicide by giving in to its long-standing socialist/communist impulses by creating the EU.
Interesting as they have their own language and customs and culture.
Whatever the facts are about Ukraine, the country isn’t worth sending billions of dollars to, only to have it unaccounted for on the other end. We have no national security interest in Ukraine, nor did we need to fight another proxy war with Russia, while our borders are being overrun every day with unknown entities. We fought proxy wars with Russia and China in Korea and Vietnam, and while those wars were going on, Russia grew weaker financially and militarily, while China grew stronger, and more assertive. The Chi-coms silently invaded this country years ago, and they are still wreaking havoc here with the help of politicians on both sides of the aisle. So much for stopping the spread of communism to our shores.
Only if it involves kicking all of the aforementioned out. Why should they profit from the combination of patriotic Americans sweat equity and blood along with their (leftists) decades of subversion and incrementalism?
So then England had a free ticket to reconquer the USA for how many years Jacomo? Yeah we’ll let you decide when a country becomes “real”.
How idiotic.
No one is going to edify you.
Ukraine has existed for one hell of a lot longer than 1992.
But even IF Ukraine came into existence in 1992 (which is absurd) that still wouldn’t give Russia a free ticket to invade, destroy and kill because “Hey come on your country is new so we can just come and kill you”.
Totally absurd and even evil.
Ukraine may have existed, but it was not an independent country until 1992.
And was a Russian client until 2014.
It’s clearly within Russia’s traditional sphere of influence.
Those are inarguable facts.
Whether right or wrong or whatever.
Importing savage African and Muslim rapists destroyed Europe. Merkel did more damage than all the wars in European history.
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