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To: Mount Athos

Looking at the replies here I see the usual stuff, US is out of everything, can’t produce enough, need Ukraine to surrender to Putin to save Ukrainian lives…

Interesting how the “solution” only involves Ukraine giving, Putin not so much.

To begin, Putin can end this today, withdraw his troops.
Next, US is not the only producer, Europe, Korea and Ukraine to name a few
US shelves are empty, yup 31 abrams, several hundred Bradley’s and Strykers sent, O aircraft yup cupboard is bare /s

The issue was and is how and when weapons systems and the types/amounts were given.

Almost two years into the war and still no western aircraft with their capacities and capabilities. Short range atacms, cluster munitions given at the end of the offensive rather than at the beginning. Remember the 20’some helicopters destroyed by atacms, now imagine that happening last may. Imagine cluster munitions and the human wave attacks that were costly to the Russians but would have been 10 fold with these weapons. And there was no valid reason not to have given earlier.

The Russian invasion was stopped by a relatively small amount of western aid, himars and 777, javelins and a small amount of air defense checked Russian advances and resulted in Kharkiv and kherson successes.

What have the Russians accomplished since then, bloodbath to almost take bakmut and Andriyivka. Speaking in Ww2 terms, many here like to do , think the Wehrmacht would have been satisfied with those results.

All about “Ukranian” failures, would say 2nd largest military has failed, and the west has failed Ukraine by giving just enough to blunt the Russians, but not enough to defeat.

Again Kharkiv and Kherson were not “goodwill gestures”, the Russians were forced to do these withdrawals, and it would have been much worse for them if proper aid was given.

Militaries win wars, politicians lose wars

Go ahead flame away


23 posted on 12/12/2023 4:13:34 AM PST by blitz128
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To: blitz128

“The Russian invasion was stopped by a relatively small amount of western aid, himars and 777, javelins and a small amount of air defense checked Russian advances and resulted in Kharkiv and kherson successes.”

Your timeline is way off. Those weapons didn’t show up until long after Ukraine stopped the Russian attack.


31 posted on 12/12/2023 7:36:32 AM PST by rxh4n1
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To: blitz128

US/NATO could have negotiated a peaceful settlement before the shooting started. But they just ignored RU.

Right after the shooting started UKR and RU were in talks for a ceasefire (with Turkey and Israel moderating) — US/NATO scuttled that.

US/NATO thirsted for this war, they thought it was a surefire way to bring RU and Putin down once and for all. At no cost except for 100000s of UKR & RU lives and a few 100s of billion dollars. What could go wrong?

UKR could have been a thriving neutral state that benefited from being a gateway between the west and east. Instead they will be a broken state and a broken society.


42 posted on 12/12/2023 4:35:54 PM PST by 13foxtrot
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