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To: Wuli
No. It will end when the “two-state” solution Arab politicians in the West Bank and Gaza admit defeat, and choose to live peacefully side by side with Israel

In other words, the war will end when they oblige Israel by "admitting defeat" without being defeated and without imposing the burden of achieving victory on their enemy.

In other words, never.

36 posted on 10/26/2023 10:47:16 AM PDT by Jim Noble (They have taken untold millions that they never toiled to earn)
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To: Jim Noble

“In other words, never.”

“Never” depends intirely on the political class among the Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza. If they CHOOSE never, then never it wuill be. If that does not satisfy the folks living under that political class, if folks would rather have peace, it will be up to them to get rid of their present rulers.


59 posted on 10/26/2023 12:10:57 PM PDT by Wuli
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To: Jim Noble

It’s hard to win a war of ideology with bullets. Not impossible, the Germans and the Japanese eventually changed their minds. But hard, as we see in Afghanistan now. They have to be defeated militarily and pressured and isolated to the point that they realize pursuing their present course is worse. In Afghanistan, the Taliban just won’t give up and the people too fearful even after 20 years of support and training.

One thing I cannot figure out is the post war phase. Who is going to run these territories? Who is going to finance their reconstruction? It cannot go back to business as usual with US/EU/UN just handing them cash. Any foreign aid has to come with very serious strings and consequences; which is tough because politics by very nature is corrupt. And beyond that, some responsible party with the willingness and legal authority to use force to ensure law and order and coexistence has to step up. There are no attacks from Egypt or Jordan because these countries have militaries that won’t allow it. Hezbullah can attack from Lebanon because Lebanon is a weak government and weak military unwilling to control their own country. For the Palestinians, I have no idea who that could be. Egypt likely won’t rule Gaza even temporarily, nor Jordan the West Bank, and the UN has already failed many times in Gaza and Lebanon. Israel never should have let Arafat and the PLO in. Big failure. Clinton should not have forced that on Israel, they should have elevated actual Palestinians living in those lands and supported them with carrots and sticks.

Anyway, going forward, there isn’t anybody who can really speak for or represent the Palestinian people. Some unserious people in the West, Biden included, saying “this has to end with a 2 state solution” are not being honest. The Palestinians are not one people of one mind, and other than Hamas there is no serious leadership among them. You could argue that at this point the Palestinians are 3 distinct people - Gazans, West Bankers, and those who live in “camps” in places like Lebanon. These three factions may be irreconcilable particularly because there is no room for the descendants of refugees in Gaza, and the people of the West Bank don’t want either of them moving in to their neighborhoods.

Hamas has to be destroyed but I have no clue who will step up after they are gone or how these three distinct groups will come together. It simply benefits them to keep blaming Israel because they cannot reconcile these tough questions for themselves. It is probably the single biggest reason why Arafat could never sign on the dotted line - he couldn’t tell the descendants of refugees in Lebanon they were not welcome and he could not tell the people of the West Bank to be prepared for 500,000 Gazans to move in, either. It’s not going to be easy at all but it is very sophomoric to just say “two state solution” when really it’s looking more like a four or five state solution is required. The Palestinians are only united in their hatred of Israel.


69 posted on 10/26/2023 1:50:25 PM PDT by monkeyshine (live and let live is dead)
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