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To: kabar

Not one fact was new to me. I know the context. Speaking of that, would Russia have done so if Trump was still president? Didn’t Biden approve it by saying, right before the Russians invaded, that a “little invasion” would be okay? Can you imagine Trump saying that? And in all the long years since the Soviets fell, Russia was also meddling in Ukraine. It is not so cut and dry. Who poisoned their President in 2004? Who armed the Donbas separatists in 2008? This pot has been boiling for a long while. But you are correct to say diplomacy is the better solution.

And what about the NATO role? Should NATO reject membership to countries because they’re close to Russia? As things stand, EVERY European country except Belarus and Ukraine are now part of it. It is too late to put that genie back in the bottle.

How do the Ukrainians, despised as they are, go forward? Do they surrender and hope for what’s best?

Our actions were not thought out well, nor in our best interests LONG before Russia’s 2022 attack. I do agree with Gates. We (Clinton, Bush and Obama) meddled in more than Ukraine. Yugoslavia... Rwanda, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria. And who can forget the so-called Arab Spring? Was Mubarak that bad to the Egyptian people or did American democrats have a role in stirring the pot? We sure did in Libya.

Trump was right on Afghanistan, but Biden absolutely f’d that up. The Abraham Accords was the right way to go, even if the Saudis killed a journalist. That got thrown out because of Biden, too.

But all of this is a moot point. ISIS is gone. Why are we still in Syria? Mubarak is dead, so is Gaddafi.

But war still rages in Ukraine.

We should rally together to stop it. I think your proposal for Trump to “get them together by withholding aid” is important but only one step. Would the Russians accept Donbas, permanent status on Crimea and withdraw from the rest?


132 posted on 10/01/2023 10:21:16 AM PDT by Alas Babylon! (Repeal the Patriot Act; Abolish the DHS; reform FBI top to bottom!)
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To: Alas Babylon!
And what about the NATO role? Should NATO reject membership to countries because they’re close to Russia? As things stand, EVERY European country except Belarus and Ukraine are now part of it. It is too late to put that genie back in the bottle.

George Kennan, our greatest modern diplomat and the author of the 5,000 word "Long Telegram" in 1946 that established our containment policy, wrote in 1997 at age 92 that NATO expansion to the east “would be the most fateful error of American policy in the entire post-cold-war era.”

“Such a decision,” he went on, “may be expected to inflame the nationalistic, anti-Western and militaristic tendencies in Russian opinion; to have an adverse effect on the development of Russian democracy; to restore the atmosphere of the cold war to East-West relations.”

Were he with us today, Kennan would undoubtedly say “I told you so.”

One can easily understand why the Warsaw Pact countries would want to join NATO. It is an insurance policy for their national security with the US picking up the tab up to and including nuclear war to defend them. Uncle Sap has been providing the security umbrella for Europe for 75 years while the Europeans built their generous welfare states amid an ever declining investment in their own defense. The Europeans cleverly let us think we were the leaders of the Free World while our blood and treasure were being squandered all over the world.

Russia has drawn the red line on Ukraine entering NATO. Given the close ties between Ukraine and Russia/Soviet Union over hundreds of years, it is incorrect to compare Ukraine with the other European countries that joined NATO after the fall of the Soviet Union. And EVERY European country is NOT a member of NATO.

Europe 1990

Europe 2022

How do the Ukrainians, despised as they are, go forward? Do they surrender and hope for what’s best?

Despised by whom? I compare Ukraine to an over-matched fighter who has too much courage for his own good. He is being battered all over the ring taking a life-threatening beating. It is time for his trainers (US/NATO) to throw in the towel and stop the fight to save his life. We don't have to destroy Ukraine to save it.

But war still rages in Ukraine. We should rally together to stop it. I think your proposal for Trump to “get them together by withholding aid” is important but only one step. Would the Russians accept Donbas, permanent status on Crimea and withdraw from the rest?

In March 2022 Russia made four demands:

"To end the war, Ukraine must not pursue NATO or European Union membership, acknowledge Crimea as Russian territory and recognize the Lugansk and Donetsk regions as independent states." Several times Putin has opined that the Minsk Agreements would be the best way to go.

But since March 2022, events on the ground have changed. Russia has acquired more territory and held phony plebiscites that have incorporated four regions in the Donbas into Russia.

Under Minsk, the Donbas would have remained part of Ukraine, but given more autonomy. The best deal Ukraine can get now may be to limit Russian territorial gains in the Donbas, agree to not join NATO, and with our assistance, obtain some security guarantees that Russia will not be allowed to invade again without severe consequences that could trigger NATO involvement.

We have some leverage over Russia with the sanctions and the designation of Putin as a war criminal. In any event, an end to the fighting and the beginning of negotiations would be a good interim solution. After 70 years have not ended the war officially in Korea, which is still under a truce. The rebuilding of Ukraine can begin once the negotiations start. The money spent to provide arms and ammo can be diverted to infrastructure. It seems that was the plan all the time:

Consulting Firms Linked To Blinken & Nuland Are Advising Ukraine On How To Spend US Foreign Aid. By: Natalie Winters

The unearthed connections come amidst over $110 billion being sent to the notoriously corrupt country, with staunch opposition to curtailing the flow of cash or even auditing where the funds are actually being spent. Strategy papers obtained from these White House-linked consulting firms appear to call for a “multi-decade” continuation of foreign aid to Ukraine, even admitting the war provided a “window of opportunity” to achieve changes that would have been "politically difficult to achieve.”

Cheers.

146 posted on 10/02/2023 5:31:54 PM PDT by kabar
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