The UK foreign secretary, James Cleverly
Posted on 06/22/2023 9:58:19 PM PDT by McGruff
German Chancellor Olaf Scholz on Thursday pledged long-term security assurances to Ukraine but dashed Kyiv's hopes for a swift accession to NATO.
"We have to take a sober look at the current situation," Scholz told German lawmakers in a speech in parliament, adding the government in Kyiv had itself acknowledged the country would not be able to join NATO as long as the war was still going on.
"Therefore, I suggest we focus on the top priority (at the NATO summit) in Vilnius (in mid-July), namely strengthening the combat power of Ukraine," Scholz said.
(Excerpt) Read more at msn.com ...
Nato allies back fast-track membership for Ukraine, says Cleverly
The UK foreign secretary, James Cleverly, has said all Nato allies are backing a plan to give Ukraine a fast track to Nato membership of the kind offered to Sweden and Finland earlier this year.
Is he going to send the Wehrmacht like the other guy?
Berlin will be in ruins a last time if he does.
Hungary and Turkey under no circumstances will support this. It’s fake.
Fineland and Sweden are a horse of another color than Ukraines culture and history of conflicts. Ukraine is and has always been unstable to say the least.
Ukraine is destroying itself for what will never happen: NATO and EU membership.
The sick thing is these Globohomo cowardly F@GGOT politicians in the EU and NATO dangle these in order to keep UK fighting and dying.
Exactly, there are many reasons Ukraine has never been accepted into the EU and NATO since it’s “ birth” in 1991 . Besides being the poorest nation, it’s corruption, debt default record, and rampant government corruption dictated its “ place” in Europe.
The age old EU saying” when shaking hands with a Ukrainian, be sure to check how many fingers he stole” rings truer every day.
Ukraine 1991-2023 RIP, the sooner the better.
Why does Germany have a vote? It doesn’t meet its NATO obligation of spending 2 percent of GDP. (I give the figures for two other countries mentioned in this thread.)
Germany 1.3% https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/MS.MIL.XPND.GD.ZS?locations=DE
Hungary 1.6% https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/MS.MIL.XPND.GD.ZS?locations=HU
Turkey 2.1% https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/MS.MIL.XPND.GD.ZS?locations=TR
Given the huge size of NATO in population and even more huge in GDP, if the members all met their obligation, that would go a long way to securing them against aggression.
But, it’s not just the amount of military spending. It looks as though Germany has become a country of cowards. That’s an over-reaction to its guilt for WWII. Japan is getting over its guilt, and embracing its duty to itself and to its allies in securing peace.
A part of military spending should be to establish a Territorial Defense Force, like Switzerland is famous for. Not merely to create a force capable of local defense, but to instill in citizens the need for defense.
...after we've sobered up.
About 700 million in Europe. while Ukraine started hemorrhaging its 40 million in the war with Russia's 145 million. Your point that Europe is "huge" is well taken. Twice the population as these United States. Is it their responsibility to measure up to the European and NATO leaders' words? Nope. Because the US....
talking of hemorrhaging:
Population in millions of Warsaw Pact circa 1989 (dates in parentheses mark Soviet invasions)
Russian Federation 148
Soviet Union (total) 290
East Germany 16
Czechoslovakia (1968) 16
Hungary (1956) 10
Poland (1981) 38
Romania (1989) 23
Bulgaria 9
Warsaw Pact 402
Population of Eurasian Economic Union 2020
Russian Federation 145
Belarus 9
Kazakhstan 19
Eurasian Economic Union 173
By itself, the Russian Federation is shrinking. It is also losing allies from the collapse of the Warsaw Pact and the collapse of the Soviet Union.
(It can be argued that its allies were never trustworthy and that the Warsaw Pact was only maintained by a series of invasions.)
NATO, on the other hand, has been expanding both because of internal growth and ascension of new members.
Population of NATO circa 1989
United States 250
Canada 28
UK 57
France 58
West Germany 63
Belgium 10
Netherlands 15
Italy 57
Norway 4
Spain 39
Portugal 10
NATO 591
Population of NATO 2020
United States 330
Canada 38
UK 67
France 68
West Germany 67
Belgium 12
Netherlands 17
Italy 59
Norway 5
Spain 47
Portugal 10
orig. NATO 720
Finland 5
Sweden 10
East Germany 16
Czechia 11
Slovakia 5
Hungary 10
Poland 38
Romania 19
Bulgaria 7
Albania 3
Slovenia 2
Croatia 4
North Macedonia 2
Estonia 1
Latvia 2
Lithuania 3
expanded NATO 858
I suspect this is a demographic fact also about most of Europe and the US, when one dismisses the massive migration going on, so much of it illegal and yet politically protected.
--- "NATO, on the other hand, has been expanding both because of internal growth and ascension of new members."
I am unsure of the assertion of "internal growth" though most obviously NATO has been expanding since WWII, and after the economic dissolution of the USSR. Without regard to the politics of this large moment in history, there seems in the larger scheme of things an almost insoluble problem.
Consider the six-minute long Roy Beck YuoTube presentation, as a demonstration of the "larger scheme" and probelm.
URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6tSqGCfoCI
Best wishes.
Given demographics and population "weighting" ideas, the notion that Europe should be bearing more in the current mess is apt. One wonders about the politics of it, in various West European nations. I had an email exchange with a friend in Germany who was absolutely against sending German troops into Ukraine. So the question of internal politics becomes most interesting and complex. I wonder how the internal politics of Biden sending in US troops to fight conventionally in Ukraine would fare.
If the ukraine is admitted and then taken over by russia, does russia become part of nato?
The UK foreign secretary, James Cleverly
Poland pushing hard for Ukraines Nato membership because they don't want to have conflicts on THEIR own border nor be responsible for Ukraine as a neighbor country.
It is hard to imagine investors pouring back into Ukraine to rebuild the country as Zelensky hopes for in th way it has always operated..... So Zelensky continues to want somebody ‘else’ to gurantee the security of his country.
You can do the work to show what you want to show.
Here’s what I’ll say: Among the unfair things are (1) democratic capitalist countries tend to grow in per capita GDP; and, (2) while advanced democratic countries move to ZPG (Zero Population Growth), they attract immigrants that keep their population growing and keep the demographics of their population healthy.
With respect to these immigrants, advanced democratic capitalist countries should strive for assimilation. This includes language, but other various aspects of culture as well, to include national defense.
It’s o.k. for ethnic Turks to sell shaved beef or lamb on pita bread at football (soccer) games in Germany, but are their young men embracing the defense of Germany?
Fact is no EU member state wants ( or can afford) the burden of a welfare state.
The Ukies are in a pickle , no matter how the war “ ends”. Their infrastructure is in ruins, industry destroyed, population is dispersed, what is left of the country has no meaningful revenue generation-even before the war they were the poorest nation in Europe…..who in their right mind would accept decades of unpayable debt?
Best solution is letting Vlad keep his five provinces, he has the revenue to rebuild them- the other half of Ukraine can be awarded to it’s historical roots- Poland, Hungary and Romania which can rebuild their sections of Ukraine.
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