Posted on 04/10/2023 12:49:44 PM PDT by ChicagoConservative27
The Ukes hide weaponry in apartment buildings all the time. Then Russia bombs the building and Zelensky screams Momm...er war crime war crime.
Never ending cycle.
Russia repeatedly tried to prevent this war -- 1)with Minsk Agreement, which we had Ukraine sign and renege on 2) In December of 2021 when they came to us with their security concerned and sought to negotiate and 3)In March of last year when they came close to negotiating peace with Ukraine before we the Brits squashed a peace deal in Turkey.
Your narrative is a brazen lie, an attempt to cover up all of the CIA's meddling in Ukraine and other countries, all done as form of modern-day imperialism to benefit our political class.
The S-300 is a series of long-range surface-to-air missile systems developed by the former Soviet Union. The Ukes would be the ones using them.
Even if true, that would have been no threat to Russia and would have been no cause for Russia to invade. The government of Ukraine is a concern of Ukraine, not of Russia.
The war started in 2014 after we fomented a revolution in Ukraine.
Laughable on the face of it. The war started when Russia invaded in 2014.
1)with Minsk Agreement, which we had Ukraine sign and renege on
Again, Russia reneged. Despite Russian claims to the contrary, Ukraine did pass a law granting autonomy to Donbas. It was Russia who reneged by not withdrawing their forces and not restoring the border to Ukrainian control, which was required by the Minsk Agreement.
2) In December of 2021 when they came to us with their security concerned and sought to negotiate
Russia did not seek to negotiate but to impose. As for their so-called concerns about NATO expansion, by its own bylaws Ukraine could not have joined NATO as long as Russia occupied Crimea and Donbas. Russia knew this, so their claims were nothing but a smokescreen.
v3)In March of last year when they came close to negotiating peace with Ukraine before we the Brits squashed a peace deal in Turkey.
There was no pending agreement because Russia made no commitments to leave Ukrainian territories. The claims of such an agreement is nothing but Russian PR. If this is truly about Russian security concerns, let Russia offer withdrawal from Ukraine in exchange for a treaty guaranteeing Ukrainian neutrality. I am sure that Ukraine would accept such a deal in a heartbeat. That Russia will not offer such a deal shows that their justification for their invasion is just for show.
>>>Stop fighting NATO’s proxy war and the missile attacks will end. Problem solved.
What nonsense! This war started with Russia attacking, not Ukraine. The Russians go home and this war ends. Problem solved. <<<
That’s pretty ignorant. It ignores the fact that Ukraine was actively treating it’s Russian speaking population like second class citizens. It ignores every Russian Federation presidents warning starting with Yelstin that Ukraine could not join NATO under any circumstances. It ignores Ukraine violating the Minsk accord. And it ignores the shelling of the Donbass by Ukraine for 8 years.
Russia has warned Ukraine to treat the ethnic Russians living inside Ukraine fairly. Nobody should have any sympathy for a retarded country poking the Russian bear.
Finally, nobody should confuse Russia with the Soviet Union. They are not the same. Russia does not want world domination like the USSR did. Russia has reverted back to a Christian country and from a certain point of view is more moral and just than America. They aren’t shoving rainbow flags down anyones throat for example.
It ignores the fact that Ukraine was actively treating it’s Russian speaking population like second class citizens.
Not true. The Russian language was not banned. Ukraine's language law is no more oppressive than Quebec's. It did not ban the use of Russian. Rather, all it did was mandate the use of Ukrainian in government institutions. It also required that Ukrainian be use along side Russian in the media, i.e. Russian would no longer have an exclusive and privileged status.
It ignores every Russian Federation presidents warning starting with Yelstin that Ukraine could not join NATO under any circumstances.
Again, Ukraine cannot join NATO as long as Crimea and Donbas are occupied by the Russians. The Russians know this. This excuse of NATO expansion is just a red herring. You yourself are ignoring the motivation that Ukraine has for seeking to join NATO: Russian threats, including the Russian invasion of 2014. As I have stated often before, if this is truly about NATO expansion, then let Russia offer to withdraw from Ukraine in return for a treaty guaranteeing Ukrainian neutrality. Ukraine would accept in a heartbeat. But Russia will never make that offer.
It ignores Ukraine violating the Minsk accord.
A popular charge by the pro-Russians. But again it is false. Ukraine did pass a law granting autonomy to Donbas. It was the Russians who violated the Minsk Accord by not withdrawing their forces and not handing over the border to Ukrainian control as required by the agreement.
And it ignores the shelling of the Donbass by Ukraine for 8 years.
The biggest lie, and a blood libel. There was no constant shelling of the civilian population in Donbas for eight years. Don't take my word for it. Look at the UN reports on casualties, reports based on the number provided by the two so-called Donbas republics.
Finally, nobody should confuse Russia with the Soviet Union. They are not the same. Russia does not want world domination like the USSR did.
No, but Russia does want to reestablish the extent of the old Russian Empire, denying the Ukrainians their freedom and self-identity. That, and only that, is what is driving this war.
I’m just going to reply to this, because it’s the crux of the issue here on FR.
>>>No, but Russia does want to reestablish the extent of the old Russian Empire, denying the Ukrainians their freedom and self-identity. That, and only that, is what is driving this war.<<<
It’s wrong. Ukraine has even less self determination than Mexico has. If Mexico was flirting joining the Axis or Warsaw Pact in the past, or a future alliance that China cobbles together, I’m pretty sure our country wouldn’t allow it. That would be effectively the same thing that Russia is doing. Imposing it’s will onto a weaker country. Weapons of mass destruction anyone??????
Some countries don’t have the luxury of self determination in all areas. Just take a look at Taiwan or how the Kurd’s have been denied a country outright by splitting their population into four different countries.
Ask the Libyans how much better or worse they are today than before the USA deposed Gadaffi. Again, the USA imposes it’s will onto a smaller and weaker country. That’s how the world works. To deny reality just results in Ukraine getting destroyed. FJB isn’t doing any Ukrainian a favor in my estimation. Because at the end the day they still lose the war and will have suffered needless causalities and property destruction.
The revolt in 2014 was in response to Putin trying to use Yanukovych to force an economic union between Russia and Ukraine, reducing Ukraine to the status of a subject state, similar to Belarus today. The title of the Tsar was that of Tsar of all Rus, i.e., of Black Rus (Moscow), White Rus (Belarus), and Red Rus (Ukraine). This is Putin's vision of the proper Russian state. Putin would have wanted to subjugate Ukraine even without the threat of NATO expansion.
You keep making an argument as if Ukraine has free will to choose it’s own path. Like Taiwan, it simply does not. Failure to listen to Putin is why Ukraine is getting pounded right now. The strong have imposed their will on the weak throughout history. And Ukraine will most likely cease to be a real country after all that is said and done.
FYI Poland feels slighted in a HUGE way. In case you’re not aware, Poland had to fight the Soviet Union for it’s very survival between 1919-1921. It’s a miracle Poland was able to keep it’s independence. However Poland views much of western Ukraine as it’s rightful territory. If Ukraine is going to fall, I fully expect Poland to invade Ukraine itself to grab a piece of the pie. I’ll be laughing my butt off if that comes to pass. It would be the complete 100% fail of FJB.
Ah, but with the help of western allies it could. That is why we cannot abandon it. Russia is not an almighty an unstoppable force. This war has shown how hollow its military strength really is. Putin thought that this would be like Czechoslovakia but he miscalculated. Right now this war is not about Russia's needs but Putin's. A rational leader would recognize that Russia would be better off to withdraw and end this, but this would not be good for Putin. He could not survive a defeat and so he continues to waste Russian lives and resources in an effort that he cannot win.
Even if he were to prevail on the battlefield, it would not end in a Russian victory. The Ukrainian national identity has become too strongly embedded for Russia to permanently hold on to any territories that it will have conquered. The best thing for Russia is to accept that reality that Ukraine is no longer a part of Russia and can no longer be ruled by Moscow. If Russia were to agree to withdraw from Ukraine, a security arrangement with a neutral Ukraine could be negotiated that would satisfy all of Russia's legitimate security concerns.
Ah, but with the help of western allies it could
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Maybe the West will stop supporting Ukraine. Maybe Ukraine made a mistake when they expected their support.
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