Posted on 02/26/2023 2:27:58 PM PST by delta7
The Zelensky creep is quite ready to fight to the last Ukie—as long as he gets to keep his mansions and stashs of cash far from the country.
The Zelensky creep is quite ready to fight to the last Ukie—as long as he gets to keep his mansions and stashs of cash far from the country.
You contradicted yourself by posting this: “They intend to install a pro-Russia regime in Ukraine and permanently end any thoughts of NATO expansion into Ukraine.”
In order to do that Russia would have to take Kiev, which is the seat of Ukrainian government, and topple the Zelensky administration.
In order to do that Russia would have to take Kiev, which is the seat of Ukrainian government, and topple the Zelensky administration.
We now know that a deal was being made between the Zelensky regime and Russia to negotiate a peace that would result in exactly those terms, and that the US and its NATO allies in the EU managed to put the kibosh on it. Whatever else you can say about Zelensky, he knows how to broker a deal. There is absolutely no need for the Russians to reduce Kiev to a smoking ruin to acheive their objective. Though no doubt Putin is willing to do that if he thinks it's necessary to achieve his goals. But that's not what the Russians have said. It's worth watching actions and words. The Russians are dead serious about not having a NATO aligned Ukraine on their border, and incorporating the Russian speaking provinces into Mother Russia.
We don't have to like it, but unless we want to follow our feckless leaders as they blunder us into WWIII, we might want to examine the actual record before blithly making assumptions that are not supported by the facts.
“We now know that a deal was being made between the Zelensky regime and Russia to negotiate a peace that would result in exactly those terms...”
No, we don’t. And you sure as hell don’t. Even Naftali Bennett — who was involved in the negotiations — did not say that.
“...and that the US and its NATO allies in the EU managed to put the kibosh on it.”
Again, that was recently refuted by Naftali Bennett and his security advisor Eyal Hulata.
They said negotiations ended when the atrocities at Bucha were discovered. Thay also said that both Ukraine and Russia are too entrenched and that neither side is in any mood to make any concessions to the other.
https://www.axios.com/2023/02/22/israel-russia-invasion-ukraine-bennett-mediation-failure
Also, Bennett said that during his mediation, Putin dropped his vow to seek Ukraine’s disarmament and Zelenskyy promised not to join NATO, the latter of which should silence — but won’t — all those kremlin sympathizers here on FR who wax indignant about NATO.
Ok, you want to now take issue with Bennets initial comments that have lead many, including me, to think that the current Administration has interfered with possible negotiations. Ok, fine, but the business insider piece you cite (thank you) notes that Bennet is "walking back" his initial claims. Fair enough, there's no dispositive proof that the original story was correct, just as there's no hard proof that Brandon blew up the Nordstream pipeline. The battle is not always to the strong, nor the race to the swift, but that's for sure the way to bet.
But now you've got me curious about this : all those kremlin sympathizers here on FR who wax indignant about NATO.
Is everyone on FR who is objecting to the march to WWIII a Kremlin sympathizer? I have to admit I haven't seen any FReeper wax indignant about NATO, but its impossible to read every post, so there might be some. And would anyone (like Trump) who wonders what NATO is for now that the Soviet Union is long gone a Kremlin sympathizer? And what, exactly, is our beef with Russia in the context of Ukraine? I feel bad for the Ukrainian people suffering under this needless war, but what's the US interest that justifies risking WWIII?
“Wait, I thought you were taking issue with the idea that something short of an actual military occupation of Kiev could bring about the Russians stated objective of a pro Russian, and non NATO Ukrainian regime. You know, the way the CIA ended the communist Allende regime and replaced it with Pinochet? Did I miss your point?”
Yeah, you sure did. For one thing, Chile was not in the middle of an existential war against a country that wanted to remove the Chilean government and install one of its proxies. When a country is under attack — especially an existential one where it is seeking to survive intact — that country is going to resist any and all attempts by its attacker to overthrow its government. A simple “palace coup” isn’t going to do it, because not only would the head-of-state have to be removed, but most if not all of its legislature and courts and bureaucracies, as well.
“The battle is not always to the strong, nor the race to the swift, but that’s for sure the way to bet.”
Sounds like you are putting your money on Russia.
“But now you’ve got me curious about this : all those kremlin sympathizers here on FR who wax indignant about NATO.”
Yeah, because so many of them have used any ascension of Ukraine into NATO as the main casus belli. If Zelensky pledged that Ukraine would not join NATO — which apparently he had done, as reported from different sources — one would necessarily assume that such a pledge would appease Putin and cause Putin to scale back and become reasonable in negotiations. But, what did Putin do? He doubled down.
“Is everyone on FR who is objecting to the march to WWIII a Kremlin sympathizer?”
Oh, stop with the hyperbole and sensationalism about WWIII, which is no more than a Russian talking point. Just think about it: Who is screeching about WWIII and nuclear war at every opportunity? Russia.
“I have to admit I haven’t seen any FReeper wax indignant about NATO, but its impossible to read every post, so there might be some.”
There are more than just “some.”
“And would anyone (like Trump) who wonders what NATO is for now that the Soviet Union is long gone a Kremlin sympathizer?”
Nice try. Trump said that his complaint with NATO is that all the NATO members aren’t paying their fair share, and the US has been picking up the majority of the tab. He said that had to stop. And, when he became president, he told NATO as much, and that encouraged the membership to pony up and increase their contributions.
“And what, exactly, is our beef with Russia in the context of Ukraine?”
We have a problem with a bully of a country with imperial designs gobbling up its neighbors; because sooner or later it comes to our door, when it would be a hell of a lot more costly to oppose it.
“I feel bad for the Ukrainian people suffering under this needless war...”
That Russia started.
“...but what’s the US interest that justifies risking WWIII?”
WWIII would result in the utter destruction of Russia, and Russia knows it. But Russia also knows that by continuously threatening WWIII it can count on weak knees in the West to clutch their pearls and pull a Neville Chamberlain act, in which case Russia wins by bluff and bully.
All while OUR Wall doesn't get built, the political grifters and their contractors cash in, and the DC Swampniks start talking about cutting Social Security.
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