Posted on 01/03/2023 7:20:27 PM PST by familyop
We are far further along than people want to believe or are even aware of.
There is ample evidence as well as physical actions which demonstrate such.
From whistleblowers like Snowden, the DOJs handling of Hunter’s laptop, FISA on Trump tower, their actions regards 6 January, the Twitter files, how the are blocking all Russian media while we have a dozen chicom stations in the US and MSM is literally in some cases copy and pasting straight from government sources in Ukraine... The misuse of classification to hide crimes, deplatforming folks which big tech don’t like, defining of threats to include people that disagree with political maneuvers as with Covid...
You are so free that you’re worried if it’s okay to say “Merry Christmas” in public and if you disagree with LGBTQIA+ you better whisper that at work.
The best cages are those people do not realize they are in. The Nazis though the first to use movies and the news as a propaganda tool didn’t know that. They were forceful and overt which caused a backlash and distrust. Their propaganda news reals were seen for what they were. We are a bit nicer and far more discrete (keep a lot behind a curtain), but if we’re not there yet as you claim, we’re ***very*** close.
“And we invaded Afghanistan. Or did something happen before we invaded which gave us cause to go in?”
Well Comrade, your handlers in St. Petes are going to give you an F in American History. Of course something happened! Nine/eleven happened, and bin Laden was doing it from Afghanistan. Also, Russia previously had spent around 10 years busy destroying things in Afghanistan, including using cluster bombs which maimed and killed many children who picked them up like toys. What bothers me is the missing maps of the Tora Bora caves the CIA was reported to have produced. Were these lost so bin Laden who was hiding there could escape? We certainly spent a lot of money with our MIC in all the years we subsequently spent looking for bin Laden.
As concerns our economics, it is far cheaper for us to help Ukraine fight their inevitable war using our money and weapons. I think our Ukraine expenses are no more than 10% of our military budget. I would say a bargain, and much of this money goes into our own economy as jobs, and taxes paid here. Although I don’t like that we are spending money on war that could be spent better on other issues. However, the fact remains that all of Russia’s former occupied countries and satelites were happy to finally escape, and wanted to be in NATO to discourage recapture and control. Finland with nasty prior experience even decided to join up as a result of Russia’s Ukraine invasion. For them and Sweden being quiet and uninvolved no longer appears to be a safe strategy.
You say that “this is not a defensive war for us i.e. the just war concept is not there. It’s us being expeditionary, expansionist, motivated by economic interests.” I think, I and many other feel the armed invasion of Ukraine, starting in 2014, and expanded in 2022, is a clear sign Russia’s goal is in the directions articlulated by Alexandr Dugin in his 1997 book which has inspired Putin and is taught in Russian militry schools.
I don’t know if I ever posted this or if my Chromebook mosbehaved as it often does.
No argument made-
Name calling: ad hominem attacks.
Red Herring: Nonexistent threat.
The Russians have 55% our Army, 47% our USAF, 43% our USN, with 40% as many males reaching military age, an economy smaller than Texas and California combined, less industry, less high tech, less allies, weaker allies...
The threat you present is (((IMAGINARY))).
What is not imaginary is that we violated Minsk. What is not imaginary is that we were the ones to withdraw from the ballistic missile treaty. What is also not imaginary is that it has always been known and understood, as well as promised, that NATO would not expand into former Soviet Republics. Just in case you missed it, here’s your Commander in Chief explaining it to you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIoRKLdwxXA
It’s not Russia invading Saudi Arabia, it’s us invading Syria, a Russian ally since the 1970s. It’s not Russia talking about building military bases on our border, which we have not tolerated in the past (see Cuban Missile Crisis or even Grenada 1983), but us talking about putting our military on their border. See the difference?
The Russians would have went along with pretty much anything, even EU membership... It was this that caused a war: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukrainian-president-zelenskiy-holding-talks-with-biden-adviser-says-2021-12-09/
That was our call, specifically the Biden administration.
“However, the fact remains that all of Russia’s former occupied countries and satellites were happy to finally escape, and wanted to be in NATO to discourage recapture and control. “
>>>>>>>>
Exactly!
Everyone of those countries ran to NATO once the Soviets finally left them, making sure to not be invaded again by Russia in the future. They were smart. Because of their NATO membership they were not retaken.
However, most of the other previously Soviet-ruled places which didn’t join NATO... were all indeed attacked by Russia and lost vast land areas : in Georgia... in Moldavia... and of course in Ukraine.
Without NATO, whole Europe would be neo-soviet today, and run by the old KGB deep-state / big-government guys in the Kremlin.
Good point. Every state that tried to walk a positive line with Russia has suffered directly by Russia abusing the relationship.
The three Budapest Memorandum countries surrendered the possibility of ever having an independent defense policy to Russia in return for “assurances” that, under Putin’s regime, aren’t ever going to be worth the ink.
Ukraine laughs bitterly at Putin’s absurd, deceitful proposal to NATO in December 2021, which effectively demanded a FULLY demilitarised Ukraine (and the Baltic countries losing NATO protection).
It’s pretty obvious that Belarus / Chechnya style takeovers, each with a Kremlin puppet in charge, is what Russia wants.
All that relentless guff on Russian TV about reunifying the Slavic nations and protecting Russians abroad and Russia having no borders anymore is in pursuit of that agenda. Russia wants NATO out of eastern Europe so it can move the tanks in.
Putin’s Russia complains about russophobia in eastern Europe- THERE IS NO SUCH THING.
Eastern Europe RATIONALLY fears invasion from Russia because Russia keeps leaking invasion maps and keeps talking about its invasion ambitions and Putin couldn’t even turn up to a peaceful commemoration in Ukraine a decade ago without putting his stupid reunification obsession into his speech.
His essay on the unity between Ukraine and Russia wasn’t loaded with positive vision and brotherly love, it read far more like a sociopath justifying genocide. Then, in the early stages of the invasion, the “what to do with Ukraine” publication read like Mein Kampf and was enthusiastically discussed in Russian media for weeks.
Only a complete idiot - or a willing accomplice - can’t see all of that for what it is.
That’s why NATO expanded eastwards. Not because of American expansionism, not because of an irrational russophobia.
You had a bunch of countries that knew exactly what the Duginists wanted to do to their countries, who wanted to join NATO, and you had other countries that were doing fine with Russian oil and gas who didn’t want to rock the boat.
Hmmm,
“suffered directly by Russia abusing the relationship.”
I am sure the Ukrainians are much better off today. Tell me, by what measure do we measure this success: GDP, refugees, infrastructure, the dead, internal instability...?
I am sure the German economy is better off today because of the stable and low energy costs from a pipeline that was mysteriously blown up and where no-one in the NATO alliance dares point the finger at the obvious culprit/s: US, Norway, UK.
“Not because of American expansionism”
No expansionism here, nothing to see:
US overthrows government in Libya.
US invades Iraq
US invades Syria
US is attempting to overthrow government in Venezuela
NATO (US led) East expansion into Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, attempts in Republic of Georgia and Ukraine.
*** Try writing one thing that doesn’t talk about your feelings on the subject and uses a single empirical data-point or some historical event where you can demonstrate that it’s accurate and then build on that.
Rhetoric alone isn’t an argument:
abusing
worth the ink
absurd, deceitful
puppet
sociopath, genocide, read like Mein Kampf
....
Let me ask you this since you like to use emotional terms, do you think a young comedian with little political experience, no money, rises to power in the Ukraine because of his own political genius, or could it be that he and many other folks were literally hand picked by us (CIA / State Department / NGO’s)? And then you talk about Russian “puppets”?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV9J6sxCs5k (leaked of phone calls where we are selecting who comes to power in Ukraine)
American adventures in the Middle East didn’t interest Ukraine. Straw man nonsense.
Phone calls from 2014 - after the Azarov government collapsed and Yanukovych fully took the Kremlin shilling, disqualifying himself from his own office, are irrelevant to the 2019 election. More straw man nonsense.
Ukraine was poor but happy being an intermediary between Russia and the EU... before Putin tried to assassinate its presidential candidate, flooded the Donbas with fake separatists, sponsored insurrection in Donetsk, invaded Crimea, and had Yanukovych commit acts of high treason that he knew would get him impeached if not lynched..
Every time Putin flexed his muscles in Ukraine’s direction, he LOST support in Ukraine. That’s why Ukraine went from electing pro Russian deputies to electing nationalists. That’s also why his troops weren’t welcomed with flowers, songs, and a victory parade in Kyiv.
Ukraine shifted toward Poland and the EU, and EU-NATO. It would’ve done the same thing even if the USA had left NATO and gotten out of Europe.
Yes I do think an actor known for political satire got elected fair and square. Just like I think America’s AAF serving actor turned tax raising governor Ronald Reagan got elected fair and square. Just like I think America’s favorite property tycoon and TV’s Apprentice boss got elected fair and square.
Good leaders don’t have to be lifelong politicians, ex-journalists, law/economics graduates with WEF connections, blue bloods.
Sometimes a country is fed up with the professional political class and reaches for the “change candidate” - it’s funny how the best American conservative presidents of the last 50 years have both been Washington outsiders and yet you can’t understand why a Kyiv political outsider won their 2019 presidential election.
Irony is, it’s Mr. Z that has the WEF connections. It’s Mr. Z that is a protegee of establishment Western political influence...
Ever listen to Soros brag about how he essentially bought influence in the Ukrainian government via his NGO’s?
Bottom line: you talk about puppets but discount all the evidence that shows the very man you support is a puppet.
I feel sorry for Ukraine. We screwed that place up because we gambled with 41,000,000 lives pushing this NATO idea and “hoping” that Russia would acquiesce. I’m sure some genius like Sullivan (our government is full of these fools) probably thought they would.
After all, we had been arming and equipping Ukraine in violation of Minsk for years. Arming and training Ukraine in and of itself would have been acceptable had it stayed at that. It would have made a true act of Russia aggression costly. However, once we offered NATO membership to Ukraine that argument no longer held. At that point it is the Russians that legitimately can make a security argument.
Like it or not, Ukraine borders Russia and what Ukraine does impacts/interests Russia. You can make that into a sovereignty issue and pretend Russia is somehow the bad guy, but Russia is not doing ANYTHING we wouldn’t do if in their shoes. In fact, historically we have toppled governments and invaded places like Grenada 1983, or pushed the world to the brink of nuclear war with the Cuban Missile Crisis 1962. But now we want to lecture Russia about how they need to tolerate Ukraine being in NATO?
Want to know how we operate?
This is happening right now:
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/senate/lindsey-graham-floats-bill-drug-cartels
https://www.newsweek.com/lindsey-graham-mexico-military-drug-kidnapping-1786025
What about that concept of “sovereignty” and all the horse shit we like to talk about when convenient?
There are some simple truths already developing. (1) You nor anyone else can articulate a national security argument for the US being involved in Ukraine. You have to create a Cold War boogieman to do it, which simply isn’t real. (2) Ukraine is not better off today. In fact, it’s a basket case at this point with 40% of their power grid destroyed as well as much of their other infrastructure, an economy that has shrunk by 30%, high inflation >25%, millions displaced, tens of thousands dead, and worst of all (3) Ukraine has not achieved it’s stated political goal of NATO and EU membership, the first being the cause of this war. Nor has Ukraine achieved its military objectives, i.e. they lost ~20% of their real estate and population, a major industrial area and port city.
So what have you achieved?
This is a stupid war.
-This war made no sense if you look at it from a risk analysis (offering NATO to Ukraine): high probability of something happening x high magnitude = super high risk.
-This war makes no sense if you look at it from a Return on Investment: Ukraine will not NOT be part of the EU anytime soon, but would have been were it not for this war. Ukraine already enjoyed many of the benefits of NATO.
There are causes worth fighting for, there is a time and place to fight. This wasn’t one of them.
The script for this war is so stupid it could have been written by Monty Python: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRwCPUEND1U
This war was predictable, preventable, it was based on economic interests where we are both hypocritical and our opponent has an actual national security argument (you simply make a reciprocal argument which can be made with anything but that doesn’t make it true). On the road to war, we had numerous opportunities to jump off that path but we chose not to and in fact, our lies (Minsk), our breaking promises (NATO East expansion), and our going back on formal agreements (ballistic missile treaty) all played a crucial role in causing this war.
What a load of narcissistic drivel. Typical stuff only dumb vatniks and even dumber American exceptionalists would swallow.
America isn’t that important to the average Ukrainian. NATO memberships was more about EU NATO than US foreign policy.
Remember what started Maidan? Nothing to do with America at all; it was Yanukovych and Azarov torpedoing the EU FTA commitment they not only had a massive elected majority mandate for, but also had a resounding constitutional mandate for. Their government collapsed because Yanukovych sold Ukraine out to the Kremlin without any debate, mothballing a year of work on a trade deal after the December 2013 meeting with Putin where he unilaterally signed away his country’s independence from Moscow.
Either Russia blackmailed Yanukovych or it bribed him. Either way, Yanukovych committed High Treason in Putin’s service.
Only with Maidan already in full swing did Nuland have a route into regime change in Ukraine. What enabled that inroad, though, was Putin getting Yanukovych to commit High Treason.
The USA bowled up more than five years into a war it quite obviously didn’t start.
The State department didn’t do anything when Putin tried to install Yanukovych the first time round, when Putin ordered the poisoning of Yuschenko.
Yanukovych = Putin puppet.
Zelenskyy = fairly elected, sovereign, intelligent leader representing all of Ukraine.
Got it. /sarc
Ever think that Yanukovych pursued what best can be described as a from of Ukrainian “realpolitik?”
Realpolitik: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik
Ukraine is more economically tied to Russia than the US. They are culturally very close, both being Slavs, Orthodox, having a shared history (Ottomans etc), Ukrainian is about 80% the same as Russian... Worst of all for your side which of course you’ll just deny, is that some of people which elected him supported what he was doing because they feel closer to Russia than the EU or US, especially when he was Governor (~20% of Ukraine’s population, which doesn’t exist according to the Western MSM). Ukraine and Russia share many of the same interests, and they are neighbors, tied together “forever,” even long after your love affair with the EU or NATO (temporary political arrangements that last as long as there is a mutual benefit) will pass.
But as to your ideas... look at what they have brought Ukraine. Ruin-
But no worries, Ukraine now a basket case, will have Blackrock rebuild them, which means they will stay a basket case but the same globalist/multinational institutions that pushed for EU and NATO membership will make even billions more after this war eventually ends, with the people of Ukraine being worse off:
https://nypost.com/2022/12/28/zelensky-blackrock-ceo-larry-fink-tout-deal-to-help-rebuild-ukraine/
Ironic, how you see Mr. Z as the “sovereign” one. Ironic how you think the best interests of the Ukrainian people were served. Sometimes, people get confused and think that a salesperson is their friend.
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