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Russia's army: An overestimated power in the war against Ukraine
Deutsche Welle ^

Posted on 09/29/2022 6:18:20 AM PDT by FarCenter

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To: tired&retired

It does seem the Lyman “cauldron” is closing shut. A lot of occupying Russians are dying and about to die. All for nothing.


41 posted on 09/29/2022 7:33:02 AM PDT by lodi90
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To: dfwgator

>>It was France’s ridiculous Treaty with Russia that started that whole damn mess in the first place.

A good counterexample to the notion that multi-party democracies are unalterably opposed to autocratic regimes.


42 posted on 09/29/2022 7:35:37 AM PDT by FarCenter
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To: FarCenter

France should have been broken up after Napoleon’s defeat.


43 posted on 09/29/2022 7:36:48 AM PDT by dfwgator (Endut! Hoch Hech!)
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To: ansel12

Not so puzzled as they study the Russians and find out that they still fight wars from a central planning ideal with the mid and lower level officers and NCOs relying on instructions from above. The Ukrainians have been training more on US models where an objective is given and then it’s up to the field officers and NCOs to figure out how to do it.


44 posted on 09/29/2022 7:37:51 AM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (Inside every leftist is a blood-thirsty fascist yearning to be free of current societal constraints.)
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To: volunbeer
I recall "stunning and puzzling" several AF bird colonels as an Army 2LT. I was briefing the Hahn AB Wing Cdr on the placement of our units early in my first NATO Tac Eval. During that presentation, they were "hit" with an NBC input, a nerve agent attack on Ramstein.

The Base Disaster Preparedness Officer was called in, and wasted no time in recommending Alarm Red, i.e. full mask and protective gear. It was an overreach, the Captain was intimidated by the colonels present.

I then spoke up, "Colonel may I make a recommendation"? Butterbars were meant to be seen and not heard, especially Army butterbars on an AF base. Using my knowledge and training, I quickly said, "Colonel, I recommend Alarm Yellow for 3 reasons..."

The Wing Cdr said, "I like that, let's go Alarm Yellow", which brought nods of assent from the NATO Team Chief. Minutes later, I heard the Wing Cdr's voice boom out from the Eagles Nest, "as long as I'm in command, whenever there's an NBC input, I want that Army LT up here."

So commenced one of the better days of my undistinguished military career...lol.

45 posted on 09/29/2022 7:38:12 AM PDT by Night Hides Not (Remember the Alamo! Remember Goliad! Remember Gonzales! Come and Take It!)
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To: buwaya

Lots of ground like 2000km, that ‘lots of ground’.
All the while, the Russians about to pick over 100,000+km.......

Dude, it was nice engaging with you, but unfortunately I need to go watch the Business channel so I can see how much further my wife’s and I IRA’s collapse since the the DOW is down nearly 600 points.....


46 posted on 09/29/2022 7:38:39 AM PDT by cranked
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To: Night Hides Not

That’s a pretty impressive story from your career though. Great to have someone like you on this forum.


47 posted on 09/29/2022 7:41:33 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Night Hides Not

Great story and I had a few of those moments as a butterbar (Army as well). Very few, but still a couple of wins. :)

Distance and time make the memories sweeter and the BS fades.


48 posted on 09/29/2022 7:41:51 AM PDT by volunbeer (Find the truth and accept it - anything else is delusional)
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To: tired&retired

Putin..

1. Crimea is not a disputed territory. Their borders have been established. It belongs to Ukraine. “Russia recognizes the borders of Ukraine long ago.”

2. Russian Forces did not take Crimea, these were local self-defense forces.. Our forces backed them up.

3. Our forces drove out the Ukrainian self-defense forces out of Crimea.

4. Don’t believe the lies of others. Our forces will not go beyond Crimea. We have no interest in Ukraine. We don’t want the division of Ukraine.

5. I’ve begun a special military operation in Ukraine. Only Professional Soldiers will be used or involved in the hostilities. No conscript soldiers. There will be no call up of reservists.

6. I agree with the Defense Ministry that it is time to begin a military mobilization and begin calling up reservists...

At 40 minutes they review Putin’s lies in detail...

https://youtu.be/jIcj4Je2c-Y


49 posted on 09/29/2022 7:42:42 AM PDT by tired&retired (Blessings )
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To: cranked

Today it drops below 29,000


50 posted on 09/29/2022 7:46:22 AM PDT by tired&retired (Blessings )
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To: FarCenter
Maybe a little perspective might help here, on Russia vs US and "overestimating"...

GDP
USA $22 T
Russia $1.7 T

Federal Spending:
USA $7 T (and could be even higher if/when Biden gets his BBB boondoggle to pass) Russia $0.475 T

That's not a typo... That's the total amount the Putin has to spend on nukes, tanks, jets, infrastructure, federal employees, social programs, federal buildings and bill, interest, postal services, the central bank, etc etc etc. Biden wants to sneeze $400 BN on university loan forgiveness, and that's all Putin has for everything, including an active war.

Putin has less money to play with than Walmart or Amazon take in each year.

Spain spends more than Russia each year. SPAIN! (Anyone care to look at a map and compare Russia and Spain?)

The US is 10-20 times larger, just on the accounting sheets, not to mention more advanced in every meaningful way... and Russian morale is generally in the toilet even when they aren't in a war or being conscripted.

Now let's talk about "overestimating" and assuming that Russia could take on the US in any meaningful way in a conventional war.

51 posted on 09/29/2022 7:48:28 AM PDT by Teacher317
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To: tired&retired

Sigh *shakeshead*


52 posted on 09/29/2022 7:49:56 AM PDT by cranked
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To: Night Hides Not

U.S. and other intelligence agencies based estimates of Russian military capabilities from assessments of satellite data (counting aircraft, tanks, etc. the things you can see outside), open source and clandestine information on weapon systems, and observation of Russian performance in Africa and Syria.

From there analysts tried to extrapolate how well they would perform in Ukraine. These assessments were way off and that became clear after the failure to take Kiev. The were several reasons why:

1) The Russian units deployed to Syria and the Wagner “mercenaries” in Africa were not a representative sample of the overall Russian force. Ordinary Russian units were not as well trained, and were poorly led. This was evidenced by poor march discipline, poor security, and lack of effective combined arms operations.

2) The Russian Army lacks the resources and force structure to effectively harness historic Russian combined arms doctrine dating back to the 1920s. Most notable is the lack of infantry, which left armor vulnerable to anti-armor weapons. Artillery is a strength, but they lack a large number of precision munitions. They they could mass fires tactically, but never achieved operational effects like at Stalingrad or during Bagration in late 1944.

3) Finally the Russians Air Forces appear to lack the numbers of well-trained pilots and capable aircraft to achieve air superiority. They cannot cannot effectively suppress Ukrainian air defenses and cannot effectively interdict Ukraines lines of communication and operation. Instead, they are reduced to harassing long range missile strikes.


53 posted on 09/29/2022 7:50:32 AM PDT by drop 50 and fire for effect ("Work relentlessly, accomplish much, remain in the background, and be more than you seem.")
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
You're very kind...my years in Germany (77-81) are my "safe space", so to speak. My daughter knows when it will be time to put me away, when I speak too much of the summer of 79...lol. Kind of like Brandon and Corn Pop.

It was different back then, for sure. I don't recognize today's military, the chain of command is a distant memory. I knew my senior leaders had my back, and they proved it when I had dustups with my battery and battalion commander. Those two never realized that I had no aspirations of a military career, they had little sway over how I did my job.

OTOH, there was a bond between my last battalion commander in Germany and me. We both ended up at Fort Bliss, and I went to work for him at the directorate he commanded. Best part, besides the implied power (which I never wielded) was meeting my wife there.

54 posted on 09/29/2022 7:53:14 AM PDT by Night Hides Not (Remember the Alamo! Remember Goliad! Remember Gonzales! Come and Take It!)
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To: dfwgator

“Even Kaiser Wilhelm told the Austrians that Serbia had nothing to do with the Archduke’s assassination.”I

Billy must have been out of the loop. The Black Hand, led by Serbian military officer Dragutin Dimitrijević, plotted to kill Emperor Frans Josef in 1911, and aided the eventual assassin of Archduke Ferdinand in 1914 that got the whole party started.


55 posted on 09/29/2022 7:59:29 AM PDT by SoCal Pubbie
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To: SoCal Pubbie

But the Serbian Government had nothing to do with it. Austria was just using any excuse to attack Serbia.


56 posted on 09/29/2022 8:01:03 AM PDT by dfwgator (Endut! Hoch Hech!)
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To: drop 50 and fire for effect
Great points.

Our pilots always have the advantage, once they're in the air, they usually don't have to wait on orders from their air commanders. Russians are too rigid in their battle plans.

I saw that as an augmentee during REFORGER 77, as a Chaparral Platoon Leader. We were an after thought with Division Staff, I was usually asked, "where do you think your platoon should be?"

When I was out of action for two days due to a bee sting near my temple (German bees were bad ass), my platoon sergeant ran the show, and why not? It was his platoon in the first place, though he was happy just being the PSG.

Turned out I was happiest when I was in the field, as a Platoon Leader or XO. There was no BS to deal with, just do my job.

57 posted on 09/29/2022 8:03:02 AM PDT by Night Hides Not (Remember the Alamo! Remember Goliad! Remember Gonzales! Come and Take It!)
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To: dfwgator

You sure about that? Dragutin Dimitrijević was the chief of the military intelligence section of the Serbia general staff in 1913. A major supporter of the Black Hand was Serbian Crown Prince Alexander Karađorđević. Serbian Prime Minister Pašić was informed that armed men were being smuggled across the border before the assassination. The government knew shat was going on.


58 posted on 09/29/2022 8:12:45 AM PDT by SoCal Pubbie
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To: Night Hides Not

“It’s apparent to me that our intelligence agencies dropped the ball on Russian military capabilities.”

A repeat of the mistakes the CIA made in the 1970s and early 1980s.


59 posted on 09/29/2022 8:37:11 AM PDT by riverdawg (Wells Fargo is my bank and I have no complaints.)
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To: dfwgator
The Japs, who were our Allies in WWI, never forgave the US for that.

The Italians, who were among the Allies in WWI, also felt betrayed at Versailles. They had been promised parts of Austria, but didn't get it.

60 posted on 09/29/2022 8:46:00 AM PDT by Angelino97
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