Posted on 08/18/2022 9:58:11 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
You cite a comment by Zelensky wherein he states, “NATO leaders confirmed that Ukraine will become a member of the Alliance.” Clearly, by “the Alliance” he means NATO.
Zelensky made explicit reference to NATO. And I did not "cite a comment" by Zelensky. I provided a link, cite and quote of a tweet by Zelensky which is still at the link provided. It was Zelensky's proclamation to the world that NATO leaders confirmed that Ukraine will become a member of the NATO alliance. Zelensky's proclamation may have been false, but that is what Zelensky proclaimed.
https://twitter.com/ZelenskyyUa/status/1404512788966514689
@ZelenskyyUa
Ukraine government officialCommend @NATO partners' understanding of all the risks and challenges we face. NATO leaders confirmed that [Ukraine] will become a member of the Alliance & the #MAP is an integral part of the membership process. [Ukraine] deserves due appreciation of its role in ensuring Euro-Atlantic security
1:55 PM · Jun 14, 2021·Twitter Web App
Russia may even have taken him seriously. There was a prior provocative assertion by President Joe Biden,
President Biden, December 9, 2021, per Zelensky Chief of Staff,
KYIV, Dec 9 (Reuters) - U.S. President Joe Biden assured Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy that Kyiv's bid to join the NATO military alliance was in its own hands, Zelenskiy's chief of staff said after the two leaders spoke on Thursday.
Repeated proclamations inferring NATO is coming to the border of Russia can have certain deleterious effects. Sort of like Russian missiles coming to Cuba, a sovereign nation ninety miles from the United States.
You then go on to say that right after Zelensky made that comment, Russia recognized DPR and LPR as free and sovereign states…following which diplomatic relations were established between Russia and DPR and LPR, and Russia signed agreements on friendship, cooperation and mutual assistance with their leaders. It is significant that Russia was pretty much alone in recognizing DPR and LPR as independent and sovereign states; but, it is no surprise, since Russia was instrumental in creating them.
To repeat what I actually said, without your elision:
That was right before the Russian Federation recognized the DPR and LPR as free and sovereign states on June 21, 2021, [sic - February 21, 2022] following which diplomatic relations were established and Russia signed agreements on friendship, cooperation and mutual assistance with their leaders. Then, following Ukraine belligerence toward the Alliance, the Alliance responded with its special operation to defend the sovereignty of the newly recognized nations of DPR and LPR.
Only desperation would lead one to elide the date, "on June 21, 2021." It can't be because you had a mission to save the electrons that would be used by leaving that date where it was. And actually, I made a mistake which you did not correct. It was, of course, February 21, 2022 when Russia recognized DPR AND LPR. June 2021 was when Zelensky made his provocative tweet.
Russia was decidedly not the only nation to recognize DPR and LPR. Syria, North Korea, Cuba and Venezuela recognized DPR and LPR. Recognition was also provided by the de facto states of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. States supporting Russia's recognition, but not expressing their own formal recognition, include Belarus, Central African Republic, Nicaragua, Sudan. This includes considerably more recognition as a nation state than was ever garnered by the Confederate States of America. It may surpass the formal recognition afforded the alliance of United States during the Revolutionary War.
DPR and LPR declared their independence in 2014. Russia did not officially recognize them as independent states until 21 Feb 2022. Should they win their war for independence, as seems more likely every day, they will be independent states retroactive to the date of declaration, much the same as the United States with 4 July 1776.
Of course, your desperate elision of the date only emphasizes your knowledge that the DPR and LPR declared independence in 2014 and Russia did not recognize them until 2022, but it was necessary for your Ukgasm that Russia created DPR and LPR. As the DPR and LPR declared independence in 2014, when did Russia create them as independent states?
It is significant that Russia was pretty much alone in recognizing DPR and LPR as independent and sovereign states; but, it is no surprise, since Russia was instrumental in creating them.
It is significant that you do not know what you are talking about. Russia officially recognized DPR and LPR in 2022, but their first official recogition, was in 2014. Russia gave de jure recognition in 2014.
25 June 2014, the President of the South Ossetia, Leonid Tibilov, signed a decree on the recognition of the sovereignty and independence of the LPR, supported by the Parliament of the Republic, which stated: “Taking into account the will of the people and the appeal of the Supreme Council of the Donetsk People’s Republic to the President of the South Ossetia to recognize the sovereignty of the Donetsk People’s Republic, supported by the Parliament of the Republic of South Ossetia, I resolve: (1) To recognize the Donetsk People’s Republic as a sovereign independent state.”
Yet, you go on to make this bizarre statement: “Then, following Ukraine belligerence toward the Alliance, the Alliance responded with its special operation.
Again, providing context clearly reveals your desperation,
the Russian Federation recognized the DPR and LPR as free and sovereign states on June 21, 2021, (sic - February 21, 2022) following which diplomatic relations were established and Russia signed agreements on friendship, cooperation and mutual assistance with their leaders. Then, following Ukraine belligerence toward the Alliance, the Alliance responded with its special operation to defend the sovereignty of the newly recognized nations of DPR and LPR.
I am disappointed that you assume that different paragraphs cannot contain allusions to different alliances. It is unfortunate that you purport to believe that an alliance between the Donetsk People's Republic, the Luhansk People's Republic, and the Russian Federation is the NATO alliance.
Immediately following the documenting the alliance formed in 2022, I stated that the Alliance responded with its special operation.
Respectfully, not even the most cretinous weekend warrior could innocently mistake the Alliance of DPR, LPR, and Russia for the NATO alliance, nor credibly assert belief that NATO is engaged in a special operation in Ukraine, or what used to be Ukraine, to defend the sovereignty of DPR and LPR.
DPR and LPR, with whom Ukraine is engaged in a civil war.
I feel the irresistible impulse to explain the import of what you said.
In the American Civil War (The War of the Rebellion or The War Between the States), for all legal purposes, the war commenced with Lincoln's first proclamation of intended blockade on 19 April 1861. That was an international act of war (the domestic equivalent being a closing of the ports) and formally recognized the Confederate States of America as a lawful belligerent power. As such, captured fighters were treated as prisoners of war, not criminals. They were lawful belligerents of a lawful belligerent power. Whether the CSA became a recognized nation state depended on the outcome of the war. The CSA did not fight to establish dominion over all the states, but to establish their own freedom from the states outside their confederation. The DPR and the LPR have not fought to establish their dominion over all Ukraine, but only of their own territory, much as Vermont did in 1777, establishing itself as a free and independent state, and later joining the United States as the fourteenth state in 1791 as an independent state with self-appointed borders.
Belligerent status is short of official diplomatic recognition as a nation state, but does officially make the belligerent power capable of sending emissaries to recognized nations and establishing commercial trade as a de facto state.
For the revolutionary colonies/states, they entered into a firm league of friendship for the common defense. They each remained a sovereign, free and independent state. That was the Articles of Confederation, under which the thirteen former colonies fought a war for independence, aided by what assistance they could attract.
Article I.The Style of this confederacy shall be "The United States of America."
Article II.
Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom and independence, and every Power, Jurisdiction and right, which is not by this confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled.
Article III.
The said states hereby severally enter into a firm league of friendship with each other, for their common defence, the security of their Liberties, and their mutual and general welfare, binding themselves to assist each other, against all force offered to, or attacks made upon them, or any of them, on account of religion, sovereignty, trade, or any other pretence whatever.
As you stated, Ukraine has been in a civil war with the DPR and LPR. They declared independence in 2008. After the DPR and LPR entered into an alliance with the Russian Federation in 2022, Russian Federation personnel were invited to enter the DPR and LPR, and they had a duty to defend the DPR and the LPR against any threat. Rather like NATO would have been obligated to defend Ukraine if they had granted Ukraine membership in that alliance. As Ukraine has long been in a state of belligerence, it has never been able to get NATO to accept an application for membership, much less attain membership.
As you so astutely observe, Ukraine is embroiled in a civil war. The civil war did not begin in 2022. Minsk I and Minsk II in 2014/2015 were ceasefire agreements to end the civil war. They were never implemented and the war never ended. It has been ongoing for at least fourteen years.
A word of advice: Live by cut-and-paste, perish by cut-and-paste.
When I cut and paste the precise words of Zelensky, or of the Minsk I and Minsk II Agreements, or of the Lisbon Accord, and you find that inconvenient for your ridiculous revisionary comments, that's just too bad. You remain unable to reply in substance because you have nothing substantive to say.
Posting the precise words of official documents is better than just making crap up and spewing.
A word of advice. Knowledge is good. Go back to Faber College and this time don't hang out at Delta House with Bluto. And stop being a poser.
👍👍👍
Nice try, Sparky.
I caught you in an obvious error; whether it be the result of carelessness or ignorance is really immaterial: You made the error. Just man up and admit it, instead of trying to obfuscate the facts in a futile attempt to save yourself.
You need to grow up, son.
Ah, this from the bully who beat up special ed kids on the school bus.
Thank you.
Even though you never have anything to say, you say it with great conviction.
The world would be better off without Ukraine and Russia at this point.
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