Posted on 05/25/2022 3:37:43 PM PDT by Mount Athos
Ukrainian vs Ukrainian Trench warfare.
Ukrainian Separatists from East Ukraine (Luhansk) fighting against Ukrainian government APU units.
Click link for Video, sorry for music
This is Ukrainians fighting Ukrainians.
But perhaps you are right, maybe the East Ukrainians are fighting so hard because they feel the alternative is gradual and eventual genocide at the hands of the Ukrainian government.
The same government that sent Azov, Aidar, Tornado, and other extremists to ethnically cleanse and torture them for 8 years. The same government that said they will live in bomb shelters while we will live free, bombing them year after year without any attention from the western press.
Well, when you start a civil war you have to expect the other side (in this case, the government) will fight back. Demand autonomy and the wish to secede, and embrace and declare allegiance to another country...well, you’re not just expressing grievances, you are breaking up the country.
There is NOTHING more brutal or barbaric than a civil war, so some very bad sh!t happens. That’s why the most tragic evil that can ever befall a nation is a civil war. They leave lasting — and sometimes permanent — scars.
Brutal. It looks like one of the guys in the trench is throwing grenades out
of his trench.
Why were Ukrainians building trench networks to attack two small areas for the crime of opting out of the coup? None of this would have happened had they simply let life go on as before with their 2014 government. But the coup leaders needed to get Right Sector out of town, so they sent them east to attack.
But immediately they passed laws forbidding Russian language speakers from using it in any manner legally, in schools etc. They all had to start learning Ukrainian. It would be like making everyone in Ireland start teaching in Gaelic.
Even Zelinsky had to rush to learn it.
Then why did Kiev sign 2 agreements in 2014 that they would honor the autonomy referendum results? They didn’t, of course, and 14,000 Ukrainians died in the ensuing 8 years. How is the DPR/LPR supposed to trust them after that?
“They all had to start learning Ukrainian.”
Like we do here. English is the language of business, law, and school. That’s why they have ESL courses, so that non-English speakers can learn English. Not learning English puts those folks at a great disadvantage. It’s not fair to them, and it’s not fair to us. Mainly, it’s not fair to the country.
Now, forbidding speaking one’s birth language at home is moronic and discriminatory. But then, Ukraine is not us. It needs our Constitution.
“It would be like making everyone in Ireland start teaching in Gaelic.”
It seems to be headed that way.
According to the Irish Constitution:
“Article 8 of the Constitution states the following:
1. The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.
2. The English language is recognised as a second official language.
3. Provision may, however, be made by law for the exclusive use of either of the said languages for any one or more official purposes, either throughout the State or in any part thereof.”
We’ll see how successful this is.
full auto, shot guns and hand grenades.... messy messy and very deadly.
In civil war, there are no ROE. Nothing is off the table.
“Then why did Kiev sign 2 agreements in 2014 that they would honor the autonomy referendum results? They didn’t, of course, and 14,000 Ukrainians died in the ensuing 8 years. How is the DPR/LPR supposed to trust them after that?”
What two agreements did Ukraine sign in 2014? If you are thinking of a so-called Minsk Agreement, there was only one in 2014. There was another in 2015 because the first proved so unworkable, and that one also failed because it was too vague, and the sides each interpreted it to their own advantage. Even impartial observers said the Minsk Agreements were unworkable.
So, in an attempt to find a way through those agreements, in 2016 there came about something called the Steinmeier Formula, which was informal, but agreed to by all sides. It called for: Elections in the Donbas area to be held by OSCE with UN or OSCE peacekeeping forces deployed to maintain order; for Russian troops and war materiel to be withdrawn from Ukrainian territory completely, and Ukraine to regain control of the formerly occupied territories and thus have control of its borders; the insurgents to lay down their weapons; free media access. It was signed in October, 2019.
Of course, problems arose. Because the Steinmeier Formula did not stipulate to a specific order of the conditions, Ukraine said Russia must withdraw first in order for Ukraine to have sovereignty over its borders, and then elections could be held under Ukrainian law (which the Steinmeier Formula had required); the argument being, if Ukrainian law was to apply, then the areas for the election could not be under foreign (Russian) occupation.
Russia rejected that and said that the elections must come first (basically saying, “The hell with Ukrainian law”), and that there would be no troop withdrawal or insurgent disarmament until then.
Remember, Russia had been at war with Ukraine since February, 2014, but the conflict was regional (Donbas area).
All that, of course, changed on February 24, 2022.
“In civil war, there are no ROE. Nothing is off the table.”
That’s what it usually boils down do. That’s why civil wars generally tend to be the worst wars. They are simply barbaric. They should be avoided at all costs.
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