Why sanctions against Russia may not work

The Hill ^ | 05/02/22 | BRAHMA CHELLANEY

[Mariner]

Most freepers are simple and driven by emotion.

Easy manipulation targets.

Media owns them.

[Lurker]

The Russians spent half of the 20th century brutalizing Eastern Europe. They were held in virtual slavery by one of the most odious evil political systems ever devised, save islam.

I can’t blame them one bit for wanting to join NATO. Now we can debate whether or not that’s wise all day long. But one can certainly understand the motivation.

Now the Russian government is saying that Ukraine doesn’t even have a right to exist as a country. Are the Ukrainians are supposed to roll over and let the Russians take over again? Maybe the memory of millions being deliberately starved to death while Russians raped their country is still a bit fresh in their minds.

Screw that nonsense. If the Russians pack up their troops and go home tomorrow this all ends. All of it. Well, there is the little matter of the bill for all the damage they did. A decade or so of oil, gas, and mineral revenues should cover most of that.

Does this mean I’m a big fan of the Ukrainian government? No, it does not. They’re corruption differs only in scale. That being said I don’t like big countries invading small countries. Yes, that goes for the US, too.

But this ain’t 1938. Putin doesn’t get to roll tanks and artillery across an internationally recognized border without consequences. And we shouldn’t stand by with our thumbs up our asses while he does it.

Because China is watching this little dust up very, very carefully. If Putin succeeds Taiwan is next. And we have vital national security interests there.

L

[MercyFlush]

“No, to hell with that. This isn’t our war and we have zero business in it.”

Go look at Travis McGee’s post #3.

Now why is Russia supposedly invading Ukraine?

Because they say NATO is a ‘mortal threat’ to Russia. In short, NATO is the United States of America.

Russia then is waging a proxy war against the USA.

Making this very much our war and our business.

[MercyFlush]

“Most freepers are simple and driven by emotion.”

I’d tell you to speak for yourself but you did.

[kiryandil]

The ruble is at 66.

[Travis McGee]

When in recorded history was THE Ukraine (a region) ever a sovereign country? Pray tell, who was the king or president of THE Ukraine in 1850? 1750? 1650? Please, do tell us.

Is "Ukraine" as a nation any more real than Kurdistan, other than the USSR broke up in 1991, and "The" Ukraine (a region) wound up a nation by the U.N.??

So, are you equally ready to go to nuclear WW3 over "Free Kurdistan!?)

Please lead protests against Iraq, Iran, Syria and Turkey. Kurdistan is just as much a nation as Ukraine, in every respect. Language, culture, history, ethnic region.... But you say No to Kurdistan but Yes to Ukraine? Why and why not?

And now, you are rushing America toward NUCLEAR WW3 to defend the borders of "a nation" that has only existed since 1991, and the breakup of the USSR?

I must assume that you are supporting the IMMEDIATE independence of Hawaii, which America stole at gunpoint in the 1890s? No payment, no treaty, no nothing, just U.S. Marines with rifles, aimed at native Hawaiians, declaring "Muh Manifest Destiny!"

(Russia, OTOH, purchased Crimea with gold, from the Ottomans, before America had a constitution, and long before we bought the American Southwest from Mexico, or bought Alaska from Russia.)

You must, now, support a free, independent, sovereign Hawaii, which was a free nation for a thousand years before "The Ukraine" (a region, not a nation) was created in 1991.

The point of the below maps is not to suggest, "THE Ukraine" belongs to Russia, but that, these borders have moved, disappeared, reappeared, for more than a thousand years of recorded history.

But NOW, you want to push for Nuclear WW3, over the totally artificial 1991 post-USSR-breakup leading to the current "The Ukraine's" borders?

So, why don't you care as much about 3 million unknown illegals rushing across our own SW border?

See, I'm not biased, it's not about "Russia is Boss over THE Ukraine!"

At times, neither Russia nor "THE" Ukraine even existed on the map.

The point is that these Central European nations, empires and borders have flowed back and forth, appeared and disappeared, for 1,000s of years.

But NOW, you want to rush America toward nuclear WW3, over the artificial 1991 "THE" Ukraine borders?

Why do you care about the invasion of THE Ukraine, more than you care about the invasion of America?

Full-court 24-7 brainwashing works, that is for sure.

[Monterrosa-24]

I’ll tell you that I traveled in Ukraine, and it was a sovereign country. I traveled in the Donbas and saw no “separatist” movement. I saw no Nazis. I did see a small communist demonstration of perhaps 60 people in Kiev at the World War II memorial.

The Ukrainians suffered genocide in the 1930s and today history is repeating itself as Russia is shipping strong personalities in the Donbas to unknown locations. People get “disappeared”. A hospital administrator told of how all hospital employees in her town of Alchevsk were forced to join the political party United Russia. Russia takes out the strong people and replaces them with their own carpetbaggers.

Do not confuse Russian speakers with Russians. Many Russian speakers from the Donbas are fighting bravely against the Russians.

You are jumping through hoops to support the murder of a beautiful people with Moscow propaganda. You should know better.

[Lurker]

“When in recorded history was THE Ukraine (a region) ever a sovereign country? Pray tell, who was the king or president of THE Ukraine in 1850? 1750? 1650? Please, do tell us”

They are one now. Hell, we weren’t a sovereign country until 1789. Does that mean the British can invade and take us back?

“No to Kurdistan but Yes to Ukraine? Why and why not?”

Because Kurdistan isn’t in Europe.

“And now, you are rushing America toward NUCLEAR WW3..”

Take a deep breath my friend. I’m not rushing towards anything. Putin knows that if a single nuke goes off anywhere he’s finished. The entire world would reject everything Russian for a century at least. Assuming of course there was anything left.

“Russia, OTOH, purchased Crimea with gold, from the Ottomans, before America had a constitution…”

And then they gave it to Ukraine.

“So, why don’t you care as much about 3 million unknown illegals rushing across our own SW border.”

I do care. I’m lighting up my idiot Reps and Senators about it daily. I can do more than one thing at a time.

The Russians started this. There’s no avoiding that fact. Ukraine has a seat at the United Nations. They have internally recognized borders. There’s no avoiding that fact.

All that needs to happen for this to stop is the Russians turn around and go home. That’s it.

L

[Kazan]

The ruble is now performing stronger against the dollar than before the war began. Russia has received more revenue for its oil than before the war. And, Russia is running surplus to its treasury since the war began.

Yet, another miserable failure given to us by the Biden regime.

[Manuel OKelley]

It didn’t have to be

If my kids have to grow up in some irradiated mess because a bunch of people stuck in the cold war/war machine wanted young men (not themselves obviously) to fight Russia it will be remembered

[Travis McGee]

None of your points made a point. None. Lame. Beyond feeble.

Sheesh. Even on FR, even old guys, it's almost all brainwashed NPCs. Easier to brainwash freepers than to get them to switch beer or soda brands.

But by all means, let's rush to Nuclear WW3 to protect the newly-minted 1991 borders of The Ukraine, a nation that never existed before 1991.

Be sure to tell your kids and grandkids, when we are all dodging nuclear fallout, that it was to protect the brand-new 1991 boundaries of newly-created Ukraine.

Lurker, why do you care so much more about the brand-new 1991 boundaries of the brand-new Ukraine, than the boundaries of the 48 United States, going back to 1848?

Because Freepers are so easy to brainwash, it's embarrassing. If the MSM turned their Narrative Hose on the SW Border, you would be driving down their tonight, full of rage. But it's not, so you don't. Pure brainwashing. NPCs.

NPCs are easier to brainwash than changing a chip in a computer.

If there were billions and billions to be made in building a wall and funding the Border Patrol, maybe the deep state/MSM brainwashing message would shift.

But walls are cheap, and rockets make billions, so here we are.

Brainwashed NPCs, rushing to Nuclear WW3, over THAT border, but not our own.

[MercyFlush]

“It didn’t have to be”

I agree. Russia could have chosen a different path after the end of the USSR. They could have played nice, become a country of laws and civil rights, become filthy rich on their resources, attracted millions of immigrants, and been the envy of the world.

Instead they went with a second rate KGB thug for a leader, embraced kleptocracy, watched as people left Russia in droves, and then were green with envy as the former Soviet slave states started to improve themselves.

Russians can’t stand to see their neighbors do well.

Old joke here:

An American, a Frenchman, and a Russian find a genie in a bottle. They let it out and are granted one wish each.

The American says, “I’d really love to retire to a nice place in Montana and spend more time with my kids.”

The Frenchman says, “I’d love a place on the Riviera with a nice wine cellar and a beautiful woman to share it with.”

The Russian says, “My neighbor has two good goats. I want them dead.”

And that’s the problem in a nutshell.

[Lurker]

“Lurker, why do you care so much more about the brand-new 1991 boundaries of the brand-new Ukraine, than the boundaries of the 48 United States, going back to 1848”

That’s completely unfair. You’re better than that.

L

[Basket_of_Deplorables]

“But if Putin thought the Estonians, Latvians, and Finns were going to invade Russia “

I believe Russia has more concern about staging missiles and nasty weapons on Russia’s border.

And I don’t blame them at all. If Russia brought missiles into, say, Cuba...

Hm.

[Basket_of_Deplorables]

“Everything Biden touches turns to shite!”

Biden is stupid, vindicti, and has a fragile ego. Bad combination. Those types tend to drink poison, hoping the other guy dies.

[Basket_of_Deplorables]

“This isn’t our war and we have zero business in it.”

Agree 100%. Many conservatives have forgotten Trump already. “No more Endless wars,” impeached for withholding weapons from Ukraine for 10 minutes...Alex Chalupa, Vindman, CIAramella, anyone? All Ukrainians. Biden family. Anyone? Burisma- Ukraine.

Dupes abound.

[Lurker]

“I believe Russia has more concern about staging missiles and nasty weapons on Russia’s border.”

If Russians hadn’t spent the better part of the 20th century enslaving Eastern Europe they might be seen as better neighbors and wouldn’t have to worry about that.

I’d they hadn’t rolled tanks into Prague in 1968 they Czechs might be a bit friendlier towards them.

If they hadn’t starved a few millions Ukrainians to death the Ukrainians might view them differently.

If they hadn’t murdered the entire Polish military Officer corps the Poles might be a bit friendlier.

But the Russians have a track record. The best indicator of future behavior is past behavior, after all.

L

[DesertRhino]

“I agree. Russia could have chosen a different path after the end of the USSR. They could have played nice,”

Idiotic. They made countless gestures of friendship. DC, NATO and the defense industry needs them as an enemy or as a submissive administrative district.

They let western researchers pore through their KGB archives. They confirmed the Venona wiretaps, USSR spies in America, the Rosenbergs were indeed Soviet spies, etc.

After 9/11 Putin was the first world leader to contact Bush and offer help. Not just thoughts and prayers, but free use of Russian airbases complete with fuel for the Afghan war. No contracts needed, just a welcome mat.

They gave us the Northern Supply Route. when our Paki “allies” flipped us the finger, they let us use Baltic ports and Russian rail to move what we needed to the Afghan zone.

They wanted to join NATO.

Of several occasions they offered IL-76 supertankers for firefighting but were refused.

They warned us at least three times about the Boston Bombers.

When we were racing to install missile defense in Poland to stop Iranian missiles route to the USA, they asked to be participating members.

Putin has repeatedly and pointedly warned us not to follow the path they did in the Bolshevik revolution. It was delivered in a way that a friend tells you not to make the mistake they did.

They flew us into space after the shuttles left and were good partners.

They have made an industry of restoring old classic churches destroyed and desecrated by the Soviets. They offered their experts to help salvage and restore Notre Dame.

They invited us to their 75th VE Day celebration but all our leaders refused. They did this despite the year before western leaders gathering at Normandy INCLUDING Merkel of Germany, but Putin was not allowed to come.

The Russians build a monument to the Katyn Massacre, released a document with Stalin’s signature ordering the executions. This was a first for any Russian leader to openly admit it. They hosted the Poles to come on the anniversary. When the tragedy of the Polish government jet happened, Putin had the State TV stations to air the film “Katyn” which pulled no punches on Russian guilt. The film showed across Russia and then had a panel of historians discuss it’s accuracy.

And their 2014 Winter Olympics had an opening ceremony that was a beautiful celebration of old historic Russian culture and nothin to do with Soviets. This unlike the Brits and their crazed NHS dance, or the Chinese with their communist crap.
What did we do? We made the whole Russian Olympics a bitch session about homosexuality and perversion.

Every hand of friendship they offered, we slapped away with disdain and insult.

So DC has finally convinced them the DC and NATO cannot be dealt with in good faith. And now we have a new cold war but without the mature thinking of the last one. Congrats.

[MercyFlush]

You really need to move to Russia. Why would you want to remain among Americans when you clearly detest us and hold us in contempt?

[caww]

Well then why aren’t you moving to Ukraine?