[Guenevere]

Bttt

[stars & stripes forever]

If America fails, it will be because of the church...

Pastors and congregation members; all with the exception of the few who stood.

[StAntKnee]

Yes they can. In my experience on a matter of debate in our town, a group of us signed a petition to request a vote versus the pending imposition of an issue. The names were circulated to employers who put pressure on employees who signed, insisting they remove their names. Many were subject to forms of shunning and abuse that would echo the kinds of proposals often cited these days to address the "unvaccinated." (Side Note: We are all unvaccinated.)

I, a signer, went to three pastors to ask them to urge parishioners to lay off the threats and harassment. None of them wanted to get involved. Pastors I have seen do not impress me in the courage department.

[tanstaafl.72555]

The first century church was castigated for being "haters of society," as they had -literlly- so little in common with it that they simply withdrew.

Correspondingly, the greatest temptation to today's church is not "compromise" (that comes downstream from the temptation), nor is it being pressured to fit into the world's mold, nor is it sexual perversion (homosexuality and heterosexuality), nor is it "lack of commitment" nor even personal peace and affluence. Rather, it is believing the lie that the primary job of the Church is to transform the culture. Social gospel folks got it wrong AND EVANGELICALS GOT IT WRONG. The former thought you did it by social action and evangelicals thought the path was "evangelism."

When that is our goal (as is the case with MANY conservative believers here on FR, as elsewhere) our sensitivity winds up making us hang around lest we "lose our audience" and we tell ourselves "who will lead them to Jesus?" This is frankly baloney, and all you have to do is look at the history of HOW God does in fact change cultures to see it. Instead, we are so afraid of the label of being angry fundamentalists and "losing our hearing" that we identify and understand and reach out to the point that there is little difference.

When God changes a culture, historically, he does so by changing the church first. He has been "far away" and now comes near. People are seized with a sense of His presence, purity, majesty, and beauty. The gospel goes from being a boring recitation of 4-5 principles to a wonderful story, and it causes His people to clump together, and --if Acts is to believe-- the populace at large to be both fascinated and aloof. They are keenly aware that GOD is there, and are weirdly frightened and aloof and at the same time drawn and mesmerized. We used to call this "revival" before the word meant a week of special services.

I have come to believe that the "benedictine option" of the people of God simply withdrawing from a culture under the judgment of God is the only real way our "testimony" is going to be believed.

That is a fine line to walk, avoiding judgmental pharisaic snobbery and maintaining a passion for God, but one of the sure signs of it will be a careless disregard and scorn for EVERYTHING in this world.... its structures, its halls of power, its wealth, its sinecures, its lauds and hatreds. It is really only then that we are free to move in those halls, when we have rejected them altogether.

I will got so far as to say that until the "patriot" crowd can welcome the complete breakup and dissolution of the USA altogether if that is what will bring renewal among God's people, then we won't get it.

[rsobin]

Money talks. Preacher is loath to alienate a plurality of his congregation (revenue source). So, there will be no telling it like it is, um, the truth.

[sauropod]

.

[Salman]

You are the one to get the phone call from the shocked parents who just learned that their child was killed in a car accident. You have to bring comforting words at the funeral. You have to answer the questions of, “Where was God?”

My guess is many of them can't simply because they don't know.