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To: kabar

I have continuously said we should not let the Ukraine join NATO, and it should be a buffer state between NATO and Russia. It that regard our goals are the same.

However, I still contend that Russia has gone too far with the invasion and must first stop killing people. Death and destruction need to stop now, before anyone else is hurt—whether Ukrainians or Russian conscripts. Each conscript killed devastates a Russian family, as given their spiraling demographics, there is on average only one child in each Russian family. Stop the violence first. That is as easy as a command from Putin to his generals right now.

Moreover, the USA, Russia and Ukraine already had an agreement under the 1994 Budapest Memorandum.

Russia promised not to invade Ukraine. We kept our promise, Ukraine is not in NATO. The Russians broke the agreement.

It is up to them to change. Until then we are right to oppose them short of war.


197 posted on 03/06/2022 7:49:23 PM PST by Alas Babylon! (Rush, we're missing your take on all of this!)
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To: Alas Babylon!
I have continuously said we should not let the Ukraine join NATO, and it should be a buffer state between NATO and Russia. It that regard our goals are the same.

We agree, but our government has been sending different signals. We have been encouraging Ukraine to join NATO and the EU for decades. The 2014 coup was all about removing the the pro-Russian President and replacing him with someone who wanted to join Europe.

A short anecdote. In 1999 I was a participant in CAPSTONE, a DOD program for newly frocked general officers (admirals and generals). I was the only civilian in the class of about 60 officers. The objective of CAPSTONE is to familiarize general officers with our national security apparatus. We literally traveled all over the US and the world visiting key military installations as well as civilian organizations like the CIA, State, NSA, etc. We also met with officials of various key countries for briefings. We were supposed to travel to Kiev to meet with government officials there to discuss such things as NATO. We were unable to land due to a heavy fog after circling the city for over two hours. Bottom line: We were thinking about Ukraine entering NATO in 1999.

However, I still contend that Russia has gone too far with the invasion and must first stop killing people. Death and destruction need to stop now, before anyone else is hurt—whether Ukrainians or Russian conscripts. Each conscript killed devastates a Russian family, as given their spiraling demographics, there is on average only one child in each Russian family. Stop the violence first. That is as easy as a command from Putin to his generals right now.

We agree totally that this war has gone too far and it needs to be stopped immediately. The longer it goes on, the more difficult it will be to walk back from this new Cold War. Further escalations will lead to possible miscalculations and a kinetic war with Russia.

At this point it is useless to point fingers about how we got here. Peter Hitchens wrote an excellent article recently, One glorious day in Sevastopol 12 years ago, I saw what was coming. That's why I won't join this carnival of hypocrisy pointing out the mistakes and culpability of all sides that led us to where we are now. It is not as cut and dried as you seem to imply. It could have been avoided.

Negotiation will require compromises from both sides. The MSM and USG talk about the pressure on Putin with the sanctions, but the West is more susceptible to public pressure than Putin. Oil is headed to $200 a bbl. How long will the public put up with $7 and up per gallon gas bills? Or the ever rising prices of food and other commodities? Right now, Blinken is frantically seeking increased production from Venezuela, Iran, and Saudi Arabia. The economies of the West, already damaged by Covid, are now being stressed. And millions of refugees flooding Europe will add to the burden.

It is up to them to change. Until then we are right to oppose them short of war.

We are at war. We have declared economic war on Russia and Ukraine is being ravaged by kinetic war. Opposition has a price, much of it being paid for by Ukraine, which is being devastated. Who is going to get the country back on its feet? And how much of the aid we send will be skimmed off by corrupt leaders? Is the West going to be stuck with the bill? The US is obsessed with taking out Putin. It raises the stakes.

209 posted on 03/07/2022 7:05:16 AM PST by kabar
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