It was actually an overextension of Victoria's supposed human rights laws. And that's one reason why calling it martial law is incredibly misleading. Martial law (it isn't called that, but the concept does exist) can only be declared by the Governor General at a federal level and there's a number of protections in place to limit the possibility of it being abused. Those protections do not exist with what happened in Victoria specifically. And calling it martial law makes it look like it's the Commonwealth government doing it and allows people like Daniel Andrew's to deflect attention from who is actually making the decisions. He's likely to be reelected next year because he's managed to convince enough ill informed voters that nothing is his fault, and everything is the Prime Minister's fault. And the bullshit like "martial law" is part of the reason, he's been able to do that.
And what redress do you have in your democracy to prevent the police from doing this unscientific and illogical act?
Not much. Because of state law - Victorian law - that says human rights can be suspended during a declared state of emergency. It's part of the 'bill of rights' that was adopted in this state fifteen years ago, which at the time, American conservatives including many here on Freerepublic told me I was some sort of fascist idiot for opposing. They didn't seem to be capable of understanding that such a document written by a socialist government in 2005 wasn't likely to bear all that much resemblance to what America's genius patriots came up with two centuries ago. Again, misinformation and misunderstandings like that made it harder for us to fight that.
2. You said “we did”. Which means it is in the past.
I like to know why not anymore.
Protests probably had a little effect but not that much. What mattered was vaccination numbers.
I tried to explain this on FR many times, but, again, a lot of people here wouldn't listen.
Opening up was explicitly based on specific vaccine targets being met. This was agreed many months ago as a compromise between the Federal government (which didn't support most lockdowns but had no power to stop them) and the more extreme state governments that were locking down constantly and had the power to do so. People here understood how it worked and that it created clear timelines to change things that were very likely (although I will agree not certain) to be adhered to. In the event, they have been adhered to as we expected. Was it a perfect way of doing things? No. It was just the best we could get with the system of government we have.
But Americans - including, again, many here on FR were telling us it wouldn't work. Well, it has. We know how the system works. We know how to make it work. And it gets bloody annoying when people who don't understand it at all tell us it's not going to work from their position of utter ignorance and paranoia about their own governments.
I'll take Australia's democracy over America's any day, At least when we have an election, we know who actually won and they are the person who takes office. I don't always get the government I want, but I've never had one that I thought might have stolen the election through fraud.
RE: It was actually an overextension of Victoria’s supposed human rights laws. And that’s one reason why calling it martial law is incredibly misleading. Martial law (it isn’t called that, but the concept does exist) can only be declared by the Governor General at a federal level
OK, let’s dispense with this canard once and for all before we continue talking past each other. I’ve never said that Australia or even Victoria is under martial law and you can read my previous response and you should get what I already said.
What I’m concerned with are the LEGAL CONDITIONS that allow Police to check people’s whereabouts, making sure that they’re only doing certain approved things that ordinarily would be considered normal.
BTW, before we continue, let me tell you that I am quite familiar with Australia ( Victoria and South Australia specifically ) because my Information Technology work has taken me to your country many times. I estimate the total number of months I’ve lived and worked there total 5 years.
I rented a flat in the suburb of Glen Waverley for 8 months while working in Melbourne.
I have numerous friends living there and I can go to Australia now ( if I am not quarantined and refused entry for being non-vaccinated ) and I have many places to live. Such are my ties to your country. That is why I do not want to see it go the way of VIRTUAL ( I did not say actual ) martial law.
Everything I’ve learned about Australia during Covid, I learned from my friends living there. Melbourne has been on hard lockdown for over 200 days and is only now easing but that is not even a guarantee with Omicron on the horizon.
Are the police checking whether you are going beyond a certain number of kilometers from your home? Are they disallowing Jews from gathering for worship even during their holiest day of the year of Yom Kippur? I was told that MOUNTED POLICE actually went to the suburb of Ripponlea to patrol the neighborhood to prevent going to a synagogue. Do you have to apply for permission to leave the country? Are you allowed to see your dying relative? Do you have Covid checkpoints?
Why am I asking these questions? Well, my friends - VICTORIANS ALL are telling me that it is happening in your state and in the neighboring state of NSW.
So, let’s not call it martial law ( and using my other analogy, let’s not call it a divorce ). But what you have IN EFFECT is similar to martial law.
I was in the Philippines when President Marcos put the country under martial law and what I’m being told is no different than what I saw in Metro Manila then.
You better be concerned with this because once your government can get away with what they’re doing without consequences in the next election, there’s no telling what they can implement next. My friend in Adelaide is telling me that they’re developing an app to prove people are staying home while required to. The app will contact people at random asking them to provide proof of their location within 15 minutes. If a person cannot successfully verify their location or identity when requested, The Health Authorities will notify the Police who will conduct an in-person check on the person in quarantine.
I don’t know if you mind this being implemented nationwide, but for me, this smacks of too much government intrusion into our lives.
RE: Not much. Because of state law - Victorian law - that says human rights can be suspended during a declared state of emergency.
And who determines the state of emergency? do you agree that what you have in Victoria is a state of emergency that validates what the government is doing? My friends don’t. They tell me it’s like telling people NOT to live life for an epidemic akin to the flu ( which for some reason, has disappeared altogether recently ).
RE: Protests probably had a little effect but not that much. What mattered was vaccination numbers.
The it goes back not to what the people want but to what a few people in parliament decide by committee. In other words, I, Me, DAN ANDREWS, decide on the basis of MY WISDOM what is good for the rest of Victoria.
1) Vaccination rate is a moving goalpost. Andrews might that we’ll open up when 70% are vaccinated, really? Israel said that too, then they upped it to 80%, then 85%, still the case rates did not go down. Now what’s happening is those previously vaccinated are NOT considered fully vaccinated until they get boosters.
Gibraltar, South of Spain, is almost 100% vaccinated and still, they are locking down for Christmas.
And let’s say you reach your ideal vaccination rate, then comes Omicron which threatens to evade every vaccine developed so far. What are you going to do? Remain locked down?
How the hell will someone sitting in Parliament know what rate is good enough for people to live normal lives?
You said you prefer the Australian way of voting, well and good, you have an honest voting system that makes you confident that the leaders you choose is exactly what the people want. And you have to be thankful that you still have the power to choose your government.
The question is — WHAT DO VICTORIANS WANT? Do they want Dan Andrews party to still be in control after Labor has already signaled what is in store? Or will you choose a different government?
I can’t answer that for you. But please don’t tell me you don’t have martial law “officially”. That doesn’t impress. The fact is you officially don’t have martial law, but by what my friends are telling me, what has happened the past few months in Victoria and NSW is not dissimilar to what’s happening in countries that have martial law.